Help with Hopstanding

[Bassman2003]

Hello,

I sam not a hophead but do enjoy some APA's and IPA's. I brew an APA that I would like to try a hopstand with but do not want to over bitter the beer. My cooling setup is all post boil kettle, so I can not lower the temp of the standing beer. My hopstand addition will be truely at flameout.

I read through the long hopstand thread and took away that 30 minutes of hopstanding equals the bitterness of a 20 min boil addition. This makes sense to me but I am stuck on how much to add in the hopstand.

The hop I am using is Bravo (AA 13.9%) The IBU for the recipe before the hopstand is ~39 IBU (60min and 5 min additions). I want to keep some long boiled hops as I am pretty much to only drinker of my homebrew and have read the bitterness will last longer if boiled and kept in a cold environment (I primary straight to keg)

So how much hops do I add in the 30 min. hopstand? I want to keep this beer mildly hoppy but add more aroma.

Thanks for your thoughts.

 

[tagz]

Not a lot of good reviews for Bravo as a late hop addition. If your going to test out hopstand, I would select a different hop.

 

[DubBrew]

That depends on how hoppy you want it. Assuming you use the 20 minute assumption then you would just calculate the IBU's on your beer for a 20 minute addition and change the addition size to make it as hoppy as you'd like.

For example a 1 oz addition of 13.9% AA n a 5 gal batch of 1.050 beer would equal 23IBU. If that's too much lower the hop addition size or use a lower AA hop. Really you won't know until you try a couple of batches and see how your system and recipe respond.

 

[stpug]

Hopstands can be done SOOOOO many different ways. This is a suggestion on how I would attempt to do one if I were in your shoes.....

I would figure out a way to bring your wort down to 175-180F after the boil, and then add your hopstand hops. It does not take much to get your wort to a lower temperature. I might something as simple as frozen water bottles dropped into the wort and stirred around for a few minutes. You would need to ensure the plastic is rated to high temps of course. This way their bittering additions will be minimal/negligible, and you also won't have to consider your other hops additions ADDITIONAL bittering contributions (i.e. your late hop additions becoming more like mid-boil additions because of the long hopstand).

Also, I know of at least one commercial brewery who used Bravo as both a late hop addition and whirlpool addition, so I would not hesitate to use it yourself.

 

[Bassman2003]

thanks for your replies. I guess I should step back and ask about aroma hop additions in general. I was thinking an ounce of hopstand hops but what is correlation between iBUs and aroma created?

The beer had 1.6 ounces of hops before I decided to do a hopstand. if I only add .4 ounces, will that be too little?

Is there a rule of thumb regarding aroma and IBU amounts?

Thanks

 

[brewmeister13]

As far as I've read when done with controlled experiments and taste panels a hop stand is more for adding hop flavor than aroma. I think I got that from either the book Hops or Pale Ales. I wish I could give you personal experience, but anything I have done a hop stand to has also been heavily dry hopped. If you are looking for only adding aroma and no IBU's or flavor I'd look to dry hop instead.

 

[stpug]

Aroma hop additions are generally considered the hop additions in the last few minutes of the boil, flameout, hopstand/whirlpool. I think each will impart its own unique quality to the beer, and none are perfectly understood nor are they perfectly predictable. Aroma and flavor are not mutually exclusive; they are contributed at the same time and their presence in the beer is imparted in a very long overlapping period. Additionally, hop aroma has the effect of enhancing the hop flavor. It's a complex relationship for sure.

If your wort is cooled to below the isomerization temperature threshold then there is no correlation between IBUs and aroma (or it's negligible). I believe that we consider the useful isomerization threshold to be around 180F, but it might extend all the way down to 160F but in an insignificant way. If you were to cool a batch of wort down to 175F before adding your hopstand hops, I believe you can consider it's IBU contribution to be nearly ZERO, and you also have the effect of stopping any further IBU contributions from the bittering and late hop additions. In essence, this would be a way of "freezing" the bitter/flavor/aroma profile of the hops in your beer (with the MAJOR exception of what will happen in the fermenter).

I don't know what batch size you're dealing with, nor do I know when those 1.6 ounces of hops were added. Regardless, 0.4 ounces of hopstand hops would be considered very little in my book (unless you're doing a 1 gallon batch or something), and the choice of hop will make a big difference due to it's aromatic qualities. For a 5 gallon batch, I would not consider a hopstand with much less than 1 oz simply because it extends my brewday longer than it already is, so the payoff must be worth the extra time for me. I like to add my hopstand hops after cooling to ~175F or lower, and then let them sit for a while (15-75 minutes; I'm still playing with time), therefore the additions must make the extra wait time worth it for me. Otherwise, I'd rather add in the last couple minutes and chill quickly. I've experimented with hopstands at 165, 160, and 145F, and while they all had their own unique additions to the beer, I felt like they lacked a significant addition. In particular, the 145F steep seemed to leave the most vegetal characteristics behind without much highly aromatic qualities (after the fermentation that is). I may try a low temp steep like this again at some point but not any time soon .

In summary, hops are a complex ingredient that can change a beer significantly, and can impart their qualities in various ways depending on how they're used - not to mention they can change their qualities during the fermentation too! Experiment, play, and have fun with them. I've done a couple fairly hot (170-175F) and long (60-75 minute) hopstands after reading an experiment in the book For the Love of, Hops, and of the one I've sampled, it's hop arom and flavor characteristics coming out of the fermenter (prior to dry hopping) was significantly higher than I've experienced prior. The major problem for me is how long it extends my brewday waiting those 60-75 minutes

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks for your great replies.

The hop schedule for the beer is .6 oz for 60 min and 1 oz for 5 min. I use whole hops in a hop bag to keep the sediment out of the kettle. This beer has turned out very nice and I like Bravo but as you stated, I am looking to experiment with hops some more after a recent trip to Oregon.

Since I use a hop bag, I can empty the boiled hops out of the bag and replace them with fresh hops for the hopstand. Would it be correct to think this would limit the increased IBU effects to just the new hops and not add too much bitterness? Seems like an easy place to start.

I could just do a 60 min addition and then move the 5 min addition to the flameout/hopstand.

 

[stpug]

Thanks for your great replies.

The hop schedule for the beer is .6 oz for 60 min and 1 oz for 5 min. I use whole hops in a hop bag to keep the sediment out of the kettle. This beer has turned out very nice and I like Bravo but as you stated, I am looking to experiment with hops some more after a recent trip to Oregon.

Since I use a hop bag, I can empty the boiled hops out of the bag and replace them with fresh hops for the hopstand. Would it be correct to think this would limit the increased IBU effects to just the new hops and not add too much bitterness? Seems like an easy place to start.

I could just do a 60 min addition and then move the 5 min addition to the flameout/hopstand.

Yes, it should limit the increasing IBU effects from your late hop additions since they would be absent, and only apply to the hopstand hops you add. The temperature of your hopstand will determine how much more isomerization will take place during your hopstand with the newly added hops. The lower the temperature, the less additional bitterness you'll impart. This is one of the reasons why I like to chill down my wort a little bit prior to adding hopstand hops: A) I can effectively stop the isomerization of the hops already in the wort, B) I have a better chance at "freezing" the delicate hop profile that's already in the wort, and C) I don't have to worry about added bitterness from the hopstand hops. Again, it doesn't take much to bring boiling wort down to ~175F (it's about 30-45 seconds with my immersion chiller).

Beersmith just updated their software with a percetange IBU contribution calculation for hopstand/whirlpool hops where the author said the contribution was something like 50% for 90C/196F over a period of time, and drops to 25% for 80C/180F over a period of time - unfortunately, I don't remember the numbers very well so take what I just said with a grain of salt. I wish I could find the quote because it gives a general baseline from which to work.

Many brewers have found nylon paint strainer bags to be useful when brewing. They are cheap from a place like Home Depot; they are reusable; they hold in hop particles better than muslin bags in my experience; you usually get 2 bags for under $5.

Anyway, have fun with it and let us know how it all works out. I'm intrigued to hear how the bravo late/hopstand additions work. I have a black IPA planned for January sometime that will have them added at 5min and flameout/hopstand. I'm hoping for some resiney, dank, piney contributions from them - somewhere along the lines of Apollo but a touch more subtle.

 

[Bassman2003]

Thanks. I do use the paint strainer bags and they are great. Since I do not use an immersion chiller, would frozen milk jugs or the like work at these temps to bring the wort to 180f? I would like easy since as you stated, I will already be adding 30+ minutes to the brew day.

 

[stpug]

Thanks. I do use the paint strainer bags and they are great. Since I do not use an immersion chiller, would frozen milk jugs or the like work at these temps to bring the wort to 180f? I would like easy since as you stated, I will already be adding 30+ minutes to the brew day.

This is where you need to think creatively, keeping cleanliness in mind...

Sure, a frozen milk jug would suffice; as would a frozen 2 liter soda bottle. While the wort it boiling, you are sitting very good for any contaminants that get into your brew. The lower the temperature gets, the more concern you need to have. Dropping from ~212F to ~180F using a clean frozen container seems safe in my book but I wouldn't want to approach 160F; so there's some room to play with there.

You could put your pot in a water bath (i.e. put boil kettle in your sink, and fill up the sink with cold water). I suspect you'll get a pretty quick drop in temperature this way while the wort is still so hot. I might opt for this if it's easily accomplished - it's a highly used method by many brewers. I did it for many years prior to owning an immersion chiller - it just takes times to hit pitching temperatures this way, but a small drop in temp would happen rather quickly.

Another option could be ice if you know beforehand and account for it prior to brewing, you can make a batch that ends 1 quart less than you intend and 1 point higher in gravity. Then when you add the ice it can bring your volume up and your gravity down where you want it.

What are your plans on complete chilling to pitching temperatures? What do you usually do?

 

[Bassman2003]

I use a 15-gal keg for my boil kettle, so I will not be able to lift it in a sink.

My chiller setup is a project I have worked on for a long time. I have a three stage system. It gets very hot here in Texas and the ground water can get into the 80's so my chilling has evolved into this:

Prechill ground water with an IM chiller in a bucket of ice water which then goes into a plate chiller. The wort goes into the plate chiller and then goes through a post-chiller made of 50' of 3/8" copper coiled inside an 8 gallin bucket filled with ice water. The day before brew day I put a large wastebasket of water in my keg fridge to put in the buckets to help save the ice.

Kind of over the top but seriously, I can go from boiling to the 40's just gravity draining out of the keg!

I have mainly brewed German and English style beers over the 10 years I have been brewing. Hoppy beers are a new area for me.

 

[stpug]

Here's an item used in the restaurant world for cooling down hot liquids that just might fit the bill (if your wallet can handle it ). And it looks like they have some available nearby you.

http://www.acemart.com/restaurant-k...ol-cold-paddle-sajrcu128v2/prod281310012.html

 

[Bassman2003]

Hey, thanks for the heads up. Seems like one could find something similar made of polycarbonate in Wal-mart to do the job. It would need to be water tight so you could submerge it to cool all of the wort. I will look into it. Keeping one of these frozen in the freezer is simple enough to then take out and wave it around a bit.