Help with conversion

[StJamesGate]

Due to the heat outside I am going to make a Belgian Tripel on my stove. Converted the required 18#’s of 2 row into light pils dme at 13#s. I have 12 on hand. Be better to order some more dme or can I take some 2row, grind then steep? Just need some advice

 

[IslandLizard]

You need to mash the milled 2-row. Use 1.5 quarts of water per pound of grist, stir well (3-5 minutes or so) until it looks like porridge.

Holding this at 148F for 60-90 minutes would be a good choice for high fermentability. To help keep this temp, place pot in a pre-warmed (to 148-150F) but turned off oven.

When the mash time is up, separate the wort from the grist. Use a sieve.
Sparge once or twice using 1.5 quarts of water total per pound of dry grist used.

Count on yielding 36 points per pound of 2-row.
For comparison, DME yields around 44 points per pound.

 

[davidabcd]

@IslandLizard
Very thorough. Bear with my questions since I only do extract with grains.
Why not use a muslin bag(s)?
Am I missing out by not doing a mash using that ratio of grain/water with my extract recipes?

@StJamesGate
So you'll use 12# of dme for a 5 gallon batch? And then do 2-3# of 2-row in a mash? Would you even need to add sugar? It sounds like a whopper ABV.
I am just curious and it's quite possible I don't understand all of the lingo. I made a Belgian tripel last week so it's interesting. Thanks.

 

[Steveruch]

Make it easy on yourself and just add some sugar, a lot of Belgian brewers do.

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard
Very thorough. Bear with my questions since I only do extract with grains.
Why not use a muslin bag(s)?
Am I missing out by not doing a mash using that ratio of grain/water with my extract recipes?

With most extract recipes you steep (specialty, crystal, roasted) grains, there is no starch conversion involved, as it is in a mash.

Steeping can be done in pretty much any (reasonable) volume of water, and any temp between 120 and 168F. It will work fast and fine as long as the pH remains under 6.0 (under 5.8 is recommended). It's like steeping a large tea bag.

With mashing, volume and temp need to be more controlled. Not too thick, not too thin. Temps between 146 and 160F generally. The actual temps used during the mash change the composition of the sugars (from the starches), making the wort more or less fermentable, and gives it more or less mouthfeel (due to residual dextrins). Water chemistry also plays an important role, especially the actual pH during the mash.

Sure you can use "muslin" bags to hold the milled grains in the mash. BIAB is a large version of that. You can stir, or dunk the bag, until the grist is fully hydrated. Then leave it submerged. Good stirring/agitating in the beginning is needed to fully hydrate the grain, that's important. Don't use too much water, the enzymes need to be concentrated and near the grain to convert the soluble starches. For example if there is much water outside the bag (smallish bag in a large kettle full of water) the mash may not work optimally.

 

[IslandLizard]

Make it easy on yourself and just add some sugar, a lot of Belgian brewers do.

That's a really good point. It saves a lot of time and hassle.

Using sugar is good, especially for Tripels. It increases alcohol without adding more body and mouthfeel, thinning it out somewhat.
Regular table sugar is fine, yeast doesn't know the difference.

 

[davidabcd]

@IslandLizard
That was very helpful. Thanks.
I'm doing a double batch of a quadrupel tomorrow and it has Munich malt, aromatic and Carafa III. It sounds like the last two are steeping grains.
How can I tell if it's a steeping grain or one requiring mashing? If there's no easy way to tell, I can just treat all of my steeping like mashing even though no starch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Converted the required 18#’s of 2 row into light pils dme at 13#s. I have 12 on hand.

In the all grain recipe, what are the mashing instructions? What yeast are you anticipating using?

If the all grain recipe is mashing "low" to create a more fermentable wort, the common conversion ratio for converting from base malt to malt extract may result in a beer that is too sweet for one's personal taste.

Yeast selection will also be a key factor. Some yeast strains are better at fermenting complex sugars. Windsor is a yeast strain that "does not utilize the sugar maltotriose" (see the current product information sheet). With an all grain recipe, one can mash low to reduce the amount of those sugars in the wort. With an extract+steep recipe, the wort composition is set. Again, the common conversion ratio for converting from base malt to malt extract may result in a beer that is too sweet for one's personal taste

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I'm doing a double batch of a quadrupel tomorrow and it has Munich malt, aromatic and Carafa III. It sounds like the last two are steeping grains.
How can I tell if it's a steeping grain or one requiring mashing? If there's no easy way to tell, I can just treat all of my steeping like mashing even though no starch.

Check the diastatic power (DP) for grains. Any grain with DP > 0 should be mashed. Also, unmalted grains (including flaked grains) should be mashed with another base malt that has enough DP to convert the starches in both lots of grain.
It's straightforward for most grains - mash any base grain (2-row, maris otter, golden promise, ale malt, lager malt, pils malt, vienna, munich, dark munich, malted rye/oats/corn/wheat) and unmalted (flaked anything, torrefied, raw), but you can steep specialty grains (caramel, crystal, biscuit, roasted, chocolate). There are some grey areas though - carapils/carafoam and aromatic are two of them. Some brands/maltsters make diastatic versions that should be mashed, some are non-diastatic and should be steeped (eg Simpsons aromatic can be steeped, Dingemans should be mashed). In practice though it probably wouldn't matter if any/all of them were steeped. If you are set up to try it, it's also worth trying the difference between mashing all of your specialty grains (use enough base grains for full conversion) and steeping your specialty grains - the difference is quite noticeable. For example, an APA with 90% DME, 5% ale malt and 5% crystal, try a version with the 5% crystal steeped, and another where it's mashed with the 5% ale malt.

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard
That was very helpful. Thanks.
I'm doing a double batch of a quadrupel tomorrow and it has Munich malt, aromatic and Carafa III. It sounds like the last two are steeping grains.
How can I tell if it's a steeping grain or one requiring mashing? If there's no easy way to tell, I can just treat all of my steeping like mashing even though no starch.

Yes, only the Munich is a base malt there. How much are you using? The rest of fermentables come from extract and sugars?
Since quads are high gravity, make sure to pitch enough healthy yeast. And oxygenate (or aerate) well, twice.

Base malts need to be mashed as they are the main provider for fermentable sugars. Other malts, grain and adjuncts can be added to the mash. Any starches that can be converted will be as long as the average diastatic power of the whole mash is above 35 °Lintner, but at that low level it may need extra time. For faster and increasing the odds of complete conversion a minimum of 45 °Lintner is recommended.

Here's a table of mashing/steeping grains (and various other fermentables, extracts, and sugars) and their projected extraction gravity (in ppg):
http://beersmith.com/Grains/Grains/GrainList.htm

Base malts are characterized by having diastatic power (DP) and are typically under 4-6 Lovibond/SRM, with few exceptions, such as Light Munich (5-7 °L) and Dark Munich (8-10 °L). Dark Munich (Munich II) can just convert itself but nothing else. Any malt kilned darker than 9-10°L won't have enough diastatic power (DP) to convert.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, there are also some newer (to me anyway) malts that appear to not fit well in many of the traditional lists, categorization schemes, or "rules of thumb" for 'specialty' malts.

For example (emphasis added):

Opal 44 ... . Sweet, moderately-toasted, with hints of chocolate and raisin; it’s wort is reminiscent of homemade almond roca. The typical usage rate is 2.5 - 5%, but at 44 DP, it can be used up to 100%. (Color 40 SRM, PPG: 35.6)

 

[StJamesGate]

Make it easy on yourself and just add some sugar, a lot of Belgian brewers do.

I got 4#'s of Candi sugar to throw in.

 

[StJamesGate]

In the all grain recipe, what are the mashing instructions? What yeast are you anticipating using?

If the all grain recipe is mashing "low" to create a more fermentable wort, the common conversion ratio for converting from base malt to malt extract may result in a beer that is too sweet for one's personal taste.

Yeast selection will also be a key factor. Some yeast strains are better at fermenting complex sugars. Windsor is a yeast strain that "does not utilize the sugar maltotriose" (see the current product information sheet). With an all grain recipe, one can mash low to reduce the amount of those sugars in the wort. With an extract+steep recipe, the wort composition is set. Again, the common conversion ratio for converting from base malt to malt extract may result in a beer that is too sweet for one's personal taste

I am using GigaYeast - Trappist Tripel x 2

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I am using GigaYeast - Trappist Tripel x 2

Not a yeast I'm familiar with; found product information here: https://gigayeast.com/yeastandbacteria/belgian-tripel/. 70% – 73% attenuation (high gravity) is a little concerning - in that the beer may end up sweeter than desired.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Add some sugar and it will reduce a lot of hassle.

But the question remains, when trying to convert a Tripel recipe from all-grain to extract+steep, how much malt extract and how much sugar? What's the balance the reduces the sweetness but doesn't result in overpowering alcohol flavors?

 

[IslandLizard]

But the question remains, when trying to convert a Tripel recipe from all-grain to extract+steep, how much malt extract and how much sugar? What's the balance the reduces the sweetness but doesn't result in overpowering alcohol flavors?

That! ^

Process is another factor:

• Full boil vs. partial boil
• Length and vigor of boil
• Timing of extract additions