Help w/ BIAB Basket Mesh Sizing (400v600v800)

[The_Bishop]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

 

[hafmpty]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

That's what Bassman2003 has. But as he said earlier, he's looking into getting it retrofitted with a mesh bottom instead of the typical "false bottom" material. With the current setup, it seems he still uses a WilserBag because of the sediment caused (at least from my reckoning, his wheat beers).

 

[taloncrwchf]

Now you guys have me thinking.

What if the basket was solid walled, with a mesh bottom so that liquid could only flow downward through it. With recirculation, you'd end up with what amounts to a mash tun in a kettle. When you lift it out, the grain wouldn't be disturbed so much and clarity should stay good and sediment should be minimal.

This is how the malt pipe on the Braumeister is setup, except that the wort is recirculated from the bottom of the grain bed.

 

[The_Bishop]

Right, and they do a bottom-up circulation to avoid stuck mashes no matter what the crush is like. You'll still disrupt the 'filter' of the grain bed when you lift up to extract the basket. If you circulate top down, and slowly withdraw the basket at the end of the mash, you're still allowing the wort to drain in the direction it was circulating in.

 

[foles]

Just stick with an all mesh basket. It doesn't disturb as much as the bag because the walls don't move around. I just pull up my basket carefully and hang it on the edge of the basket with the hooks and it drains nicely. Grain bed seems to set nicely.

 

[Bassman2003]

Yes, I have exactly that solid wall design. I think a basket would work just fine as well. My hope is to limit the amount of sediment with a finer mesh, but I can see this is unchartered territory and will probably require some experimentation by me.

Maybe I can order some different sized meshes and just place them over my false bottom to see how a mash goes.

I will call the mesh people next week and see what they say. The 74 micron mesh in the video really peaked my interest. It may gum up but when I pick it apart, if it took a little longer to drain like a fly sparge I don't think it would be an issue for me. Testing is the only way to know.

 

[The_Bishop]

I would think that 74 micron mesh would just plug up, personally. Never know unless you try, though.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I am in the process of switching over to eBIAB. Need to finish my garage brewery renovation before I can brew, so note that I have not tested what I am about to describe.

I designed my system with a 400 micron basket and got 4 of the j hook hangers that suspend the basket over the kettle (see picture). My thinking is I can:
- winch the basket up after mashout
- hang it on the hooks
- remove winch
- put sparge arm back in
- recirc to reset the grain bed in "drain mode"

Then switch over to my HLT for sparging (optional)

 

[The_Bishop]

I think that there's too much focus on wort clarity going on here. As long as you don't have husk material in the kettle, you'll be good. Some of these ideas get in the way of the simplicity of BIAB.

If pre-boil wort clarity is important to you, then maybe consider a two vessel system.

Wort clarity isn't going to be obtained via very fine mesh sizes in the basket. What I think is more likely is that the basket with plug up and either drain very slowly or not at all. If you look at a traditional mash tun with a full false bottom, the 'grain strainer' usually has huge openings compared to the BIAB bags/baskets. Recirculation obtains clear wort by using the grain bed as a filter which I think is something that falls outside the 'usual' BIAB process.

 

[hafmpty]

I think that there's too much focus on wort clarity going on here. As long as you don't have husk material in the kettle, you'll be good. Some of these ideas get in the way of the simplicity of BIAB.

I agree to a point. There might be too much focus on wort clarity for you. But focusing on wort clarity is part of the reason I asked the initial question. Whenever you add something to your brewing process, there are trade-offs. Add a pump, you no longer have to lift (as much at least), but you've got something else to clean and something else that needs attention. Add a basket instead of a bag, recirculation vs. set-it-and-forget-it, etc. Each has it's own advantages and disadvantages.

For those that want a simple BIAB they'll have a simple BIAB setup. You'll get flour in your wort. For some, that doesn't matter. For others it does. For some if they can minimize the amount of flour, they are going to try. For those that want clear wort, they might be willing to trade some of the simplicity of BIAB for wort clarity, something they perceive to be worth it. That, to me, is what this discussion has centered around.

For me, I want to try a few different things to see what I can do to minimize flour in the kettle. So I'm going to...

1. Crush a bit looser.
2. Recirculate for temp stability.
3. Slowly pull the basket.
4. Not squeeze the grains
5. See what the results are.

If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll try recirculating a bit more after I raise the basket to see if I can "reset" the grain bed and get clear wort. If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll leave the grain basket in place and drain the wort into a bucket. I'll pull the basket, pour the wort back into the kettle and go from there. If I'm happy...cool. If not then...

I'll try something else or adjust my expectations.

 

[foles]

I suggest you brew with the basket and see before making any changes. There is a vast improvement over the bag because the basket is rigid, I.e. it doesn't flap around. Grain bed seems to set and can be raised without much disturbance.

 

[foles]

Think of the raising of the basket as a batch sparge of a set grainbed. I don't get any flour.

 

[hafmpty]

Think of the raising of the basket as a batch sparge of a set grainbed. I don't get any flour.

Awesome! I have the basket on order. Estimated to get here next week. Hopefully brewing before the end of the month. This will be the first brew on the new system. I figure just like my old system there will be a learning/dialing in period. It might seem weird but I like that part of the brewing process...figuring this stuff out.

 

[Bassman2003]

Freddy,

Your setup looks fine, but you have to take into account the flour that will fall through from dough-in. The idea of a sparge will clear the wort, but to make it successful you need to get all of the flour that is sitting on the bottom of the kettle to be sucked out. Without a conical design or some way to disturb it into the pump flow it will remain throughout your boil. If your elements are low in the kettle you can risk them being surrounded by sediment and burning the batch.

This is what I am looking to avoid. It is kind of different than just clear wort.

 

[FreddyMar3]

That's a good point. I do have a dip tube that sucks from pretty low but I suppose the sediment could pile up away from it. I'll have to play around with it once I actually get brewing. Maybe I can agitate it with a stir bar and a magnet if it ends up being a problem.

The guys from the brew boss threads haven't reported any scorched flour. Those baskets are 400 micron.

We shall see!

 

[The_Bishop]

If you're concerned about the flour resting on the bottom or elements, once you pull the bag/basket give the wort a quick whirlpool. It'll put this stuff in suspension, and the convective currents from the heating will keep it there during the boil.

 

[MusicalBrewer]

Yes, I have exactly that solid wall design. I think a basket would work just fine as well. My hope is to limit the amount of sediment with a finer mesh, but I can see this is unchartered territory and will probably require some experimentation by me.

Maybe I can order some different sized meshes and just place them over my false bottom to see how a mash goes.

I will call the mesh people next week and see what they say. The 74 micron mesh in the video really peaked my interest. It may gum up but when I pick it apart, if it took a little longer to drain like a fly sparge I don't think it would be an issue for me. Testing is the only way to know.

Bassman2003,

Did you ever do any experiments with the 74 micron mesh? I'm in the process of building a single vessel system and would love to know your findings.

 

[bondra76]

I'm now using a 400 micron basket. Love it. I haven't had any problems with grain coming through.

 

[MusicalBrewer]

I'm now using a 400 micron basket. Love it. I haven't had any problems with grain coming through.

That's good to know! I'm thinking of a solid side basket with 300 or 400 micron bottom. I've found very little feedback (good or bad) about the 300 micron though.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I have a 400 micron basket and wouldn't want to go any smaller. I had an air bubble form underneath on the first brew because the pump was not throttled enough. Anything smaller than that for grain isn't necessary imo

 

[Bassman2003]

Bassman2003,

Did you ever do any experiments with the 74 micron mesh? I'm in the process of building a single vessel system and would love to know your findings.

Music,

Yes, I did try some smaller meshes. The lowest I tried was 140micron and it was great initially but as the mash puffed up the flow stopped. (as everybody expected). I now have settled upon a 300 micron mesh that is working just fine. 400 would be fine as well.

I did make a mini strainer out of a $6 SS stock pot from Walmart. I cut the bottom out and put some 35 micron screen in its place. The role of this is to recirculate the wort through as the boil is coming up to temperature for post mash cleanup. So after the mash is finished you just run the wort through at full tilt and a lot of sediment is taken out of the wort. I have the pot clamped on the inside of my boil keg. The 35 micron is too small so I will try 70 - 150 and strike a balance between particle size and flow.

This step also works with a normal BIAB material like a Wilser bag. Just hang it on the inside of the boil kettle and recirc the wort through while it is coming up to temperature. Easy and a lot of stuff gets taken out of your wort.

 

[MusicalBrewer]

Music,

Yes, I did try some smaller meshes. The lowest I tried was 140micron and it was great initially but as the mash puffed up the flow stopped. (as everybody expected). I now have settled upon a 300 micron mesh that is working just fine. 400 would be fine as well.

I did make a mini strainer out of a $6 SS stock pot from Walmart. I cut the bottom out and put some 35 micron screen in its place. The role of this is to recirculate the wort through as the boil is coming up to temperature for post mash cleanup. So after the mash is finished you just run the wort through at full tilt and a lot of sediment is taken out of the wort. I have the pot clamped on the inside of my boil keg. The 35 micron is too small so I will try 70 - 150 and strike a balance between particle size and flow.

This step also works with a normal BIAB material like a Wilser bag. Just hang it on the inside of the boil kettle and recirc the wort through while it is coming up to temperature. Easy and a lot of stuff gets taken out of your wort.

Thanks for getting back with me on this! I just completed my second BIAB brew day (have been an all grain 3 vessel brewer for a couple years)...and I just kegged the first BIAB I did. When I was transferring to the keg I noticed extreme increase in the trub....like 4 times the amount (or more) from my 3 vessel brewing. I would like to figure out how to cut this down. I would love to hear the results of your filtration test.

I am just experimenting with BIAB now. I am ready to upgrade my system to do 10 gallon batches. Was totally set on a 3 vessel HERMS system but came across some BIAB threads that changed my mind. I figured I better give it a try and see if I like it.

Regarding the 300 micron basket...what kinds of beer do you brew and what size grain crush are you using? I do a lot of wheat beers and currently crush at .037". I'd like to be able to filter as fine as possible and still have good flow (planning on recirculating the entire mash). I'm trying to determine if 300 will work or be too fine for how I brew.

It's late Sunday night and I've had a few...so if parts of this don't make sense I apologize in advance...I'll read it again tomorrow and clarify if I need to

 

[Bassman2003]

I moved to a BIAB setup after years of three vessel cooler brewing. Sediment has always been on my mind but it is kind of a hot button topic on the forum. I try to keep it down to protect my heating elements.

I brew a lot of wheat beers and use a normal crush. Sediment is only an issue if you are using electric to brew. Even if you do not use electric, you can do the post mash straining I mentioned while the wort is coming up to temperature. I also use a paint strainer bag from Home Depot that is a great hop bag to recirc the wort through. It is amazing how much stacks up in the bag!

When I get some free time I want to document my system as I have put a lot of effort into some areas to improve the process for me. I plan on making some videos but am too busy now.

I will say that my hefeweizen's have been the best I have ever made since moving to this full volume approach. So there is a lot of goodness with BIAB.

 

[MusicalBrewer]

I brew a lot of wheat beers and use a normal crush. Sediment is only an issue if you are using electric to brew. Even if you do not use electric, you can do the post mash straining I mentioned while the wort is coming up to temperature. I also use a paint strainer bag from Home Depot that is a great hop bag to recirc the wort through. It is amazing how much stacks up in the bag!

When I get some free time I want to document my system as I have put a lot of effort into some areas to improve the process for me. I plan on making some videos but am too busy now.

I will say that my hefeweizen's have been the best I have ever made since moving to this full volume approach. So there is a lot of goodness with BIAB.

Thanks so much for your feedback. I will be using electric to brew, so i will do some form of filtration after the mash like you suggest. I have been enjoying my BIAB sessions and finding many benefits as well....and an improved Hefe is an unexpected but very welcome benefit!!

 

[Bassman2003]

The main area for concern with the heating elements is during the mash. If you do not get the sediment away from the elements they get crowded so to speak and get too hot. This leads to the particles sticking and burning on the elements. The best case scenario would be a conical where you could dump the sediment out from the bottom. ( like the Brewha) I did the next best thing and added a bottom drain to my keggle.

 

[stever1000]

Anymore comments on 300 vs 400 micron?

Are these baskets easy to clean? I live in an apartment so I fear they would be hard to get all the particles off the inside

 

[The_Bishop]

My setup is a 400 micron basket. I have zero issues with it at all. Cleanup is pretty easy as long as you rinse it after dumping the grain out.

 

[stever1000]

My setup is a 400 micron basket. I have zero issues with it at all. Cleanup is pretty easy as long as you rinse it after dumping the grain out.

That's my concern, I live in an apartment and can't easily rinse it. I would probably have to get a hose setup from my kitchen to my bath tub

 

[The_Bishop]

Let me rephrase that:

The cleanup of the basket is always pretty easy. It's just easier if you rinse it off before anything has dried to it.

Does you shower have a hand-held head? Makes things easier!

 

[stever1000]

Let me rephrase that:

The cleanup of the basket is always pretty easy. It's just easier if you rinse it off before anything has dried to it.

Does you shower have a hand-held head? Makes things easier!

No, but I plan to move to a new apartment and I will add that to my list of "must have"