Help tweak my *fake* American IPA

[Cro Magnon]

Going to do my first BIAB IPA. First off I'm not sure if this is an American IPA or just an APA. Second, I don't have American 2 row...I have Belgian Pale malt hence the fake. Other than that, does this work? Would love your thoughts on how you think this would turn out in terms of flavour. Do IBUs work with the alcohol content? Does the hop schedule make any sense at all? (% values rounded off for easier reading).

SRM - 9.6
ABV - 6.15%
IBUS - 36

Belgian pale malt - 65%
Rye malt - 21%
Flaked barley - 8.5%
Crystal 60 - 5.2%

8g Centennial - 60 min
5g Cascade - 20 min
5g Cascade - 10 min
5g Cascade - 5 min
6g Cascade - Dry hop
(Open to additional dry hopping options or any/total reworking of the hop schedule)

Yeast - Only have s-04 and Fermoale AY3.


Look forward to your thoughts!

 

[Nagorg]

Batch size? Helps to assess the hop schedule. 6 IBU's isnt anywhere near IPA or APA territory and is certainly a low BU/GU ratio.

Flaked Barley is an interesting addition to the grist. May give more of a malty character and slightly creamy mouthfeel. NOt really typical for the style but it is "fake" afterall.. Why not!

US-04 is a solid yeast for the style too!

From BJCP..
APA:

IPA:

 

[jschein]

you need to bring the IBU up to at least 35-40 which to me would still be cloyingly sweet

 

[Cro Magnon]

Sorry guys! IBUs was a typo! It's 36 and not 6! Does it work now?

 

[Cro Magnon]

Batch size? Helps to assess the hop schedule. 6 IBU's isnt anywhere near IPA or APA territory and is certainly a low BU/GU ratio.

Flaked Barley is an interesting addition to the grist. May give more of a malty character and slightly creamy mouthfeel. NOt really typical for the style but it is "fake" afterall.. Why not!

US-04 is a solid yeast for the style too!

From BJCP..
APA:
View attachment 695799

IPA:
View attachment 695800

I know...I'm not even sure why I added the flaked barley. Shall I scrap it? Will flaked oats provide any interesting qualities?? Thanks for confirming the S-04!

 

[Cro Magnon]

you need to bring the IBU up to at least 35-40 which to me would still be cloyingly sweet

So how far up should I take it? This is the bit I don't get....To me 36 IBUs seems insanely bitter...but I don't know exact;y how it works in an IPA..maybe the higher ABV balances and you don't really taste 36 IBUs of bitterness? Should I aim for 45?

 

[jschein]

So how far up should I take it? This is the bit I don't get....To me 36 IBUs seems insanely bitter...but I don't know exact;y how it works in an IPA..maybe the higher ABV balances and you don't really taste 36 IBUs of bitterness? Should I aim for 45?

Well what kind of Commercial beer do you like to drink? Your recipe could go either way .

 

[Cro Magnon]

Well what kind of Commercial beer do you like to drink? Your recipe could go either way .

Well I end up drinking trashy lager most of the time (because that's all you get where I live) but I've brewed Stouts, Red Ales and Hefefweizens so far and I've loved them all! And um...I've never actually had an IPA So I guess erring on the side of caution here would be prudent (however that translates to bitterness or anything else) When you say recipe could go either way are you referring specifically to bitterness? I'm ok with bitterness as long as it's not an overly 'perceived bitterness' which makes it hard to drink...if it fits in with the overall balance I'm fine with that regardless of the IBU count..

 

[eric19312]

Belgian pale malt is fine in APA or American IPA. I will buy it from time to time just for the slight difference. Thats a lot of adjuncts which will be gummy in the mash. Probably need some rice hulls. 5% C60 sounds nice in the style.

the hop amounts seem really small unless this is a pretty small batch. Would help if OP would answer the batch size question asked many times already.

I'd not bother with 20 and 10 minute addition of hops. Just do your 60 and then add all the Cascades at flameout. Give it a stir and let it settle for a bit before you chill.

Probably benefit from a bit of gypsum in your water. Getting water exactly right is not really critical at this point but a tsp in the boil would probably benefit the style regardless of how perfect your water was or was not when you started.

 

[Cro Magnon]

Belgian pale malt is fine in APA or American IPA. I will buy it from time to time just for the slight difference. Thats a lot of adjuncts which will be gummy in the mash. Probably need some rice hulls. 5% C60 sounds nice in the style.

the hop amounts seem really small unless this is a pretty small batch. Would help if OP would answer the batch size question asked many times already.

I'd not bother with 20 and 10 minute addition of hops. Just do your 60 and then add all the Cascades at flameout. Give it a stir and let it settle for a bit before you chill.

Probably benefit from a bit of gypsum in your water. Getting water exactly right is not really critical at this point but a tsp in the boil would probably benefit the style regardless of how perfect your water was or was not when you started.

Sorry I overlooked the batch size question. Final fermenter volume is about 8 litres. So is this bitterness too much, little or right for the batch size?

Regarding the hop additions at flame out...I assumed that the different late additions add varying degrees and combinations of flavour and aroma. Is this not the case? Is it just the same as one flameout addition? ( The IBUs will drastically go down if I transfer the late addition to flameout so should I increase the 60 min addition?)

Thanks for the tip about Gypsum. Is it ok to add gypsum alone and not have to calculate all the other ion ppm values? Problem is I don't know my water profile. I use bottled 'mineral water'. Basically RO, UV filtered and supposedly havve minerals added to it. The amounts, nobody knows.

 

[Nagorg]

Thanks for the batch size of ~8 liters (~2.1G) .

Consider this for your 8L fermenter batch:
-------------------------
Belgian pale malt - 85%
Rye malt - 6%
Flaked barley - 5%
Crystal 60 - 4%

14.2g Centennial (8.6% AA) - 60 min
14.2g Cascade (7.8% AA) - 15 min
14.2g Cascade (7.8% AA) - 5 min
28.3g Cascade (7.8% AA) - Dry hop

S-04 English Ale Yeast (11g)

 

[Cro Magnon]

Thanks for the batch size of ~8 liters (~2.1G) .

Consider this for your 8L fermenter batch:
-------------------------
Belgian pale malt - 85%
Rye malt - 6%
Flaked barley - 5%
Crystal 60 - 4%

14.2g Centennial (8.6% AA) - 60 min
14.2g Cascade (7.8% AA) - 15 min
14.2g Cascade (7.8% AA) - 5 min
28.3g Cascade (7.8% AA) - Dry hop

S-04 English Ale Yeast (11g)

Thanks a lot for putting this down! Any reason for the reduction in rye? Also 11g of s-04....is that specific to this yeast or any yeast for this batch size? I've been using 5-6g for my 8 litre batches so far. Thanks a lot for the hop schedule!!

 

[Nagorg]

Thanks a lot for putting this down! Any reason for the reduction in rye? Also 11g of s-04....is that specific to this yeast or any yeast for this batch size? I've been using 5-6g for my 8 litre batches so far. Thanks a lot for the hop schedule!!

Basically trying to get your fake IPA closer to a real IPA...
Rye malt doesn't have as much diastatic power as malted barley and higher percentages can cause problems with stuck sparges. If you are after more of the rye character you can absolutely use a higher percentage. Doing so will slightly raise your %ABV while lowering the BU/GU ratio and that may be just fine for what you are after. But just be sure to add some rice hulls to the mash to reduce potential problems from a suck sparge. You can always increase the hop schedule to bring the BU/GU ratio back up. (MORE HOPS!!)

On the yeast, I'm used to S-04 coming in 11g sachet's. Thats technically more that you will need for an 8L batch of that SG but its not an "over pitch". Just run with it and RDWHAHB!

 

[eric19312]

@Nagorg recipe looks spot on for a really good American IPA.

I’d think no problem using half a pack of yeast if that is your practice...it will be enough and I assume you will use other half on another batch soon.

 

[Tancred the Brewer]

I just brewed an APA this spring. It is delicious. I agree a little rye malt helps add a nice spiciness to the overall flavor. Mine is around 10% of the total grist. You have the right hops, but I would agree you should up them a bit. Mine came in at 48 IBUS and it is perfectly balanced for the 5.7% ABV beer I have. Go for it. At 8 liters it will go fast and you can brew another one and make modifications to your liking.

 

[ThenFalcon]

Also 11g of s-04....is that specific to this yeast or any yeast for this batch size? I've been using 5-6g for my 8 litre batches so far. Thanks a lot for the hop schedule!!

I brew similar size batches and have used S-04 many times. Half of an 11g packet of S-04 will be plenty for this 8 litre batch.

 

[Cro Magnon]

Ah got it! Hmm...I'll play around with it a little more and see what I get. And I'm not used to it but I will try to get used to....MORE HOPS!

Noted about the yeast as well...I think I'll stick to my regular 5g pitch...only because it's so expensive and hard to get where I am! Thanks a bunch for all your input!

 

[Cro Magnon]

I just brewed an APA this spring. It is delicious. I agree a little rye malt helps add a nice spiciness to the overall flavor. Mine is around 10% of the total grist. You have the right hops, but I would agree you should up them a bit. Mine came in at 48 IBUS and it is perfectly balanced for the 5.7% ABV beer I have. Go for it. At 8 liters it will go fast and you can brew another one and make modifications to your liking.

Thanks a lot! These suggestions have really helped me tweak it closer to authentic. I might do 10% rye like you said...I went with 20% only cos I saw a recipe where a guy was experimenting with 20, 30 and 40% rye. I can save that for later. So if 48 IBUs worked well with your 5.7% then at 6.6% I can and probably should go higher with the hops. Thanks!

 

[eric19312]

TBH I don't think you need to be so afraid of the rye. At 10% it might be noticeable in a modestly hopped beer but might be harder to detect in a full blown IPA. Denny's Wry Smile uses almost 20% and it's delicious.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/denny-conns-wry-smile-rye-ipa.84515/

 

[Cro Magnon]

TBH I don't think you need to be so afraid of the rye. At 10% it might be noticeable in a modestly hopped beer but might be harder to detect in a full blown IPA. Denny's Wry Smile uses almost 20% and it's delicious.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/denny-conns-wry-smile-rye-ipa.84515/

Yes! This is where I got the 20% idea from! Anywhere...mashing right now...I went with 15%.....let's see how it turns out...I'm gonna drink anything short off a mold riddled steaming bowl of barley soup. Umm...I might have done something blasphemous though....I ran out of pale malt....had only 900g instead of 1.5 kg....so I made up the balance with pilsner (450g)... Nothing I can do about it now but had no choice really. Oh well if something interesting comes out of it I'll let you all know. Thanks for all the advice!

 

[eric19312]

Honestly with the hopping rates in IPAs you would have to have a pretty well trained pallet to tell difference between any of domestic 2-row, domestic pilsner or continental versions of same. Might come out a hair lighter with the pils in there but probably not noticeably given the C60 is driving most of the color.

 

[Velnerj]

Ah got it! Hmm...I'll play around with it a little more and see what I get. And I'm not used to it but I will try to get used to....MORE HOPS!

Noted about the yeast as well...I think I'll stick to my regular 5g pitch...only because it's so expensive and hard to get where I am! Thanks a bunch for all your input!

You can always reuse the yeast cake. If your making small batches and you're brewing on a regular basis, there's no reason why you couldn't be reusing your yeast.
It's very easy and almost fool proof. Read up on it and I'll think you'll be surprised, an easy way to reduce costs especially if yeast is hard to come by....

 

[Cro Magnon]

You can always reuse the yeast cake. If your making small batches and you're brewing on a regular basis, there's no reason why you couldn't be reusing your yeast.
It's very easy and almost fool proof. Read up on it and I'll think you'll be surprised, an easy way to reduce costs especially if yeast is hard to come by....

Thanks, yes I have been considering this for a while....saving the yeast is no issue I know but making the started requires magnetic stir plate, conical flask etc...so a gain investment. Unless I'm missing something here? Also, I'm not sure with saved yeast...how do you keep track of how much is in what you saved? With a fresh pack you know how many billion cells etc, but with saved yeast or a new starter, how do you measure this? Maybe this is a topic for another thread but just sharing my thoughts.. still new to all this. If you can point me to a thread where this is covered would be very grateful

 

[Cro Magnon]

Honestly with the hopping rates in IPAs you would have to have a pretty well trained pallet to tell difference between any of domestic 2-row, domestic pilsner or continental versions of same. Might come out a hair lighter with the pils in there but probably not noticeably given the C60 is driving most of the color.

Thanks that's good to know! I did smell the two and honestly couldn't tell the diff between the pilsner and the pale malt...but again my palate is very unrefined....I'm sure an experienced brewer could tell them apart easily. Anyway like you said, the crystal will overshadow them. Oh well...it's another experiment to learn from.

 

[Immocles]

Thanks, yes I have been considering this for a while....saving the yeast is no issue I know but making the started requires magnetic stir plate, conical flask etc...so a gain investment. Unless I'm missing something here? Also, I'm not sure with saved yeast...how do you keep track of how much is in what you saved? With a fresh pack you know how many billion cells etc, but with saved yeast or a new starter, how do you measure this? Maybe this is a topic for another thread but just sharing my thoughts.. still new to all this. If you can point me to a thread where this is covered would be very grateful

A super easy way that I use is to leave a little beer in the fermenter at bottling, swirl everything together and pour them into sterilized and sanitized mason jars. Then just toss them in the fridge until I use them again. I generally brew around 3G batches and just direct pitch the jars into the wort, never have made a starter.

Getting the hang of knowing how much is in the jar is sort of a whole thing. You will see the different levels of yeast form as it settles in the jar. You'll see a gunky layer (especially with dry hops), a brownish layer which is still good yeast, and a white layer of pure yeast. I eyeball it and compare it in my head to what a fresh packet of liquid yeast would hold. Brew day, I pour off most of the beer, swirl it up (trying to leave as much of the bottom gunky layer as possible), and pitch. If I make a 1.045 gravity beer with a new packet, I'll usually keep 3-4 jars. Thats generally more than enough for me for quite awhile and I don't even bother going another generation, but some folks will pitch for a very long time off just one fresh packet.

edit: There are some pitching calculators that do have settings for pitching for slurry. I've never personally used them, but I'm sure someone else has and can fill you in a bit more on that. I'm a bit more reckless, I guess.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

 

[Cro Magnon]

A super easy way that I use is to leave a little beer in the fermenter at bottling, swirl everything together and pour them into sterilized and sanitized mason jars. Then just toss them in the fridge until I use them again. I generally brew around 3G batches and just direct pitch the jars into the wort, never have made a starter.

Getting the hang of knowing how much is in the jar is sort of a whole thing. You will see the different levels of yeast form as it settles in the jar. You'll see a gunky layer (especially with dry hops), a brownish layer which is still good yeast, and a white layer of pure yeast. I eyeball it and compare it in my head to what a fresh packet of liquid yeast would hold. Brew day, I pour off most of the beer, swirl it up (trying to leave as much of the bottom gunky layer as possible), and pitch. If I make a 1.045 gravity beer with a new packet, I'll usually keep 3-4 jars. Thats generally more than enough for me for quite awhile and I don't even bother going another generation, but some folks will pitch for a very long time off just one fresh packet.

edit: There are some pitching calculators that do have settings for pitching for slurry. I've never personally used them, but I'm sure someone else has and can fill you in a bit more on that. I'm a bit more reckless, I guess.

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

Wow that's a lot of great info..thanks! Figured as much judging saved yeast quantities was a whole other 'feel' thing. I guess if you're doing 3 gallon batches....I can work it out from there for my litre batches. You mention the gunky layer with dry hops etc and the pure yeast white layer. How do you separate these two? Are you aiming to pitch only the pure layer or is it ok to mix? If so, what about residual flavours from the hops and the last batch of beer?

 

[Immocles]

I do not brew many dry hopped beers, and when I do it’s generally the last time I use that yeast. I also use hop spiders in the boil and don’t get as much trub transferred to the fermenter.

I try to get that top, floatie break material disposed of and usually pitch the entire contents. I’m never super afraid of over pitching and always pitch into progressively higher gravity beers. the lighter layers are “purer” yeasts, but there’s plenty of healthy cells in the darker layers as well.
There are threads on washing yeast as well to filter and only keep the best cells, but I stick with this method.

 

[Cro Magnon]

I do not brew many dry hopped beers, and when I do it’s generally the last time I use that yeast. I also use hop spiders in the boil and don’t get as much trub transferred to the fermenter.

View attachment 695936

I try to get that top, floatie break material disposed of and usually pitch the entire contents. I’m never super afraid of over pitching and always pitch into progressively higher gravity beers. the lighter layers are “purer” yeasts, but there’s plenty of healthy cells in the darker layers as well.
There are threads on washing yeast as well to filter and only keep the best cells, but I stick with this method.

Nice..thanks for the pic! I see what you mean now.....I'll give this a try..without bothering with a starter, and see how many beers I ruin. So I'm seeing the lighter layers sitting ABOVE the darker layers...is that right?

Will check out some other threads on washing yeast as well. Thank for all the info!

 

[Immocles]

Yep. The heavier, less healthy (but still good) yeasties will settle to the bottom. Had there been any hops in the transfer, either kettle or dry hops, they would have been the bottom layer.

 

[Cro Magnon]

Yep. The heavier, less healthy (but still good) yeasties will settle to the bottom. Had there been any hops in the transfer, either kettle or dry hops, they would have been the bottom layer.

Great!! That makes it a lot clearer now...thanks a bunch!

 

[Nagorg]

Great!! That makes it a lot clearer now...

And yes, Clear IPA is very much a desired characteristic!
#MIPACA2020

 

[PberBob]

I’ve been harvesting and/or repitching yeast for a while now. I have a Fastferment conical that has a valve and collection bulb at the bottom. I grab the yeast after the primary stage settles down and then pitch the dry hops in. I wash the yeast with boiled/cooled water and then add a quart of boiled/cooled/aerated wort in a semi-closed gallon jug. After that settles down, I leave it in a mason jar in the fridge for the near term ( 4-6 weeks) or add glycerin solution and freeze it.

 

[Nagorg]

I’ve been harvesting and/or repitching yeast for a while now. I have a Fastferment conical that has a valve and collection bulb at the bottom. I grab the yeast after the primary stage settles down and then pitch the dry hops in. I wash the yeast with boiled/cooled water and then add a quart of boiled/cooled/aerated wort in a semi-closed gallon jug. After that settles down, I leave it in a mason jar in the fridge for the near term ( 4-6 weeks) or add glycerin solution and freeze it.

Thats really cool @PberBob . Possibly a great post in the Fermentation & Yeast area..

 

[PberBob]

That’s where I learned how to wash and freeze. Freezing Yeast. Fantastic resource.

 

[Cro Magnon]

I’ve been harvesting and/or repitching yeast for a while now. I have a Fastferment conical that has a valve and collection bulb at the bottom. I grab the yeast after the primary stage settles down and then pitch the dry hops in. I wash the yeast with boiled/cooled water and then add a quart of boiled/cooled/aerated wort in a semi-closed gallon jug. After that settles down, I leave it in a mason jar in the fridge for the near term ( 4-6 weeks) or add glycerin solution and freeze it.

Nice! Why do you add wort yeast after washing?

 

[PberBob]

Between the fermentation and the washing, the yeast get pretty stressed without food or air. I add a little dilute aerated wort ~1.028-1.035 to get them to into a normal life cycle state. Then I mercilessly cold crash them in the fridge to put the to sleep.

I’ve found that the best wort to use is the last dregs from the mash tun that drain out after you’ve moved on to other steps. It’s thin, ~1.015, and has more natural ’habitat’ than refined DME. A short boil to sterilize it and concentrate it a little and its good to go. Activity in about an hour.

 

[Cro Magnon]

Between the fermentation and the washing, the yeast get pretty stressed without food or air. I add a little dilute aerated wort ~1.028-1.035 to get them to into a normal life cycle state. Then I mercilessly cold crash them in the fridge to put the to sleep.

I’ve found that the best wort to use is the last dregs from the mash tun that drain out after you’ve moved on to other steps. It’s thin, ~1.015, and has more natural ’habitat’ than refined DME. A short boil to sterilize it and concentrate it a little and its good to go. Activity in about an hour.

Ah got it... So for a BIAB brewer, this would be the runnings collected from sparging that I could use to feed the yeast?

 

[PberBob]

Yeah, so after you pull the bag from the kettle and whatever sparging, set the bag in a clean bucket or tray to catch the drippings. Then, when you‘re cleaning up, save the run-off to feed the yeast.

 

[bracconiere]

Batch size?

at what equates to one pellet, or having to split pellets in half....i knew right off....

to the OP, when i brew i wing it...i wouldn't worry to much about winning awards....brew it, i like your rye addition, maybe a bit more then my taster would like, but like rye ipa's.....(in fact, i haven't had a rye beer in ages! )

 

[jrgtr42]

Thanks, yes I have been considering this for a while....saving the yeast is no issue I know but making the started requires magnetic stir plate, conical flask etc...so a gain investment.

Honestly, no it doesn't. Making starters does not |REQUIRE those things - it may make it a bit easier and more efficient, but I've never had them in the... however many years I;ve been brewing and making starters.
My process is to boil up a quart (liter) of water with a cup of DME. (dry malt extract.) |||I let it go for about 15 minutes, adding a half-teaspoon of yeast nutrient somewhere in there. Cool to mid-70s to 60 degrees F, I then transfer into a clean, sanitized growler - |I have tons of those kicking around. IF not, any 2-qt glass container will work. I shake it up, to get as much air in there as I can. I use a regular cap and airlock, stash it in a dark kitchen cabinet and I give it a good swirl whenever I walk past. I usually try to make the starter 2 days before brew day.
So, as you see, it doesn't require any special equipment - most brewing does not. We see people with drool-worthy stainless steel pro-level equipment, but honestly, most of us use cobbled- together equipment, updating here and there, repurposed stock pots, buckets for fermenters, bottles saved from commercial beer, and so on.
In the immortal words of Charlie Papazian, RDWHAHB - Relax, Don't Worry, Have A HomeBrew.