Help to convert a recipe

[phishfood]

I am finishing a batch of bitter that I really like, so much so that I want to brew this beer up on a regular basis. What I would like to do is to convert this recipe to a partial mash so as to make it cheaper.

While I do have a hazy idea of what is needed to do this, I most certainly don't understand the specifics.

The ingredient list of the kit is as follows:
3.3 lbs gold LME
1.25 lbs Pale LME
8 oz Carapils
8 oz Crystal 10L
2 oz US Goldings hops

Boiling instructions:
3. Steeping Grains If you did not have your grains crushed in our store then use a rolling pin or an
empty beer bottle to lightly crush the grains. Next, put the crushed grains into the muslin boiling
bag. Add a minimum 1.5 -2 gallons of tap water to your pot. If you have a larger pot and can boil a
larger volume do so. Boiling a larger volume will result in better hop utilization, less darkening of the
wort and better tasting beer. REMEMBER: Boilovers are messy – be sure to leave a gallon or two of
headspace in the kettle. Set the grain bag into your pot and turn the heat to high. Steep your grains
at 155 degrees for 10 - 30 minutes. 10 minutes is fine if you're pressed for time. You'll need a
thermometer for this stage. If you don't have a thermometer, make sure you don't boil the grains.
Remove the pot from the burner and let grains steep for another 5-10 minutes. Discard the grain bag
or rinse and save for future use.
4. The Boil Before returning the pot to the burner add the malt extract (some kits contain liquid
(LME), dry (DME) or both). Make sure to stir the water so the malt extract does not scorch on the
bottom of your pot. When the extract is fully dissolved, return the kettle to the burner. As soon as you
see a boiling bubble add 1.5 oz Goldings bittering hops and boil 60 minutes for optimal hop
utilization and bittering. Hops can be added directly to the kettle or placed in a nylon boiling bag
(Catalog #6300) in order to keep hop sediment out of the fermenter. DO NOT LEAVE YOUR POT
UNATTENDED! Boil-overs are messy and should be cleaned up immediately. Add ½ oz Goldings
aroma hops for the last 2-5 minutes and remove the pot from the burner.

So, it seemed as simple to me as replacing the 3.3 lbs of gold extract with 4.4 lbs of an appropriate grain. But that raises the question as to what % efficiency you need to achieve to make the .75 lbs LME= 1 lb grain equation work. And, since the grain that I would use would have enough diastatic power to convert the steeping grains in this recipe as well, it appears to me that I actually need to back off of the grain a little to end up with the same amount of fermentables.

I really don't know how to set this up, so any and all help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[COLObrewer]

Personally I like the trial and error route, you have the basic idea. I don't get too scientific or technical, you WILL want to take good notes however.

 

[phishfood]

Anyone have some recommendations?

 

[Bob]

Okay, deep breath. There are a lot of variables here. Like COLObrewer wrote, there's gonna be a learning curve. Take detailed notes.

The standard 1 lb grain = 0.75 lb LME = 0.6 lb DME is a starting point. If you can steep, you can probably hit 60% efficiency in a partial mash. I regularly hit 75%, so my figures are based on that.

How much you can mash is going to be limited by your equipment. I can mash about 5 lbs max in my little cooler, so that's what I use. I figure the pale malt and specialty grains until I max out my mash-tun; if my software tells me I'll be short on gravity, I make up the difference in pale DME at flameout.

You're looking at 5.687 lbs of pale malt to replace all the LME in your recipe, plus 8 oz each of CaraPils and 10L Crystal, for a total of 6.687 lbs. I'd round the Pale up to the nearest pound, so I'd call it 6 (better to overshoot than go under) lbs of pale malt. In my mash-tun, a full 7 pounds is too much. So I'd knock it down to 4 lbs of pale malt and the specialty malts. That leaves 2 lbs of pale malt unaccounted for, which can be made up with 1.2 lbs of DME (always use DME to make up these wierd differences).

I always calculate my PMs to yield 3.5 gallons in the kettle, no matter what the kettle gravity, so I don't boil my little (5-gal) kettle over. I let my software figure out the IBUs - I use ProMash.

It's not that hard, really. Search for DeathBrewer's excellent stovetop partial-mash tutorial here on HBT. You won't go wrong! He explains it far better than I can.

Good luck!

Bob

 

[phishfood]

Many thanks!

I think that I understand what you are saying. One question, though, you say that you add the extract at flameout, meaning that this is not boiled? Not to question your method, but what is the reason for that instead of mixing it in preboil?

I have read through DeathBrewer's thread, and have used that method to make a pale ale that is sitting in the fermentor right now. Excellent thread!

 

[Bob]

One question, though, you say that you add the extract at flameout, meaning that this is not boiled? Not to question your method, but what is the reason for that instead of mixing it in preboil?

Any extract you'll find in a homebrew store has already been boiled until the break is seen. After, the wort is centrifuged to remove break proteins before concentration. It's also packaged in a sanitary state. So there's no real reason to boil it: The two main reasons you boil malt wort have been accomplished. (Of course this assumes unhopped extract.)

All you really need to do is sanitize it with heat. Ten minutes above 180F will do that - and it takes longer than ten minutes to chill the wort below 180F in my brewery. I suspect the same in yours. By the time the extract is stirred in, any flameout hops are added and the chilling procedure begun, sufficient time has elapsed to sanitize (never mind extract is already a sanitary product...).

There are other reasons, too. First, if you add extract at, say, ten minutes left in the boil, you have to remove the kettle from the heat to stir it in, then start the boil again. Stopping and restarting the boil is bad for a multiplicity of reasons. Second, boiling a concentrated wort even for ten minutes or so sets up complex Maillard reactions which impact the color and flavor of the finished beer. Not such a big deal in Brown Ale and Porter, but in light beers like yours, you want to avoid it.

But if it makes you feel better, boil it for a couple of minutes. Won't do too much detectable harm to your beer, and it'll make you feel better.

Bob

 

[phishfood]

Alright, I have brewed this beer. The recipe is as follows:

4 lbs American 2 row
2.5 lbs pale liquid malt extract
.5 lbs Carapils
.5 lbs Crystal 10L

1 oz of US Goldings 4.9% added at start of boil
1 oz of US Goldings 4.9% at 2 minutes

Mash was 62 minutes at 155 F start, 155 F finish, followed by a mashout at 170 F for 8 minutes.

Sparge was at 170 F for 15 minutes, stirring several times.

Boiled 4 gallons, then topped off to just over 5 gals with cooled boiled water.

The problem is that the hydrometer samples are really watery and light colored, much more so than when I brewed this recipe as an extract. Also, there is an additional unwelcome flavor that I can't quite name.

I took a hydrometer reading just after pitching, but it was from the dregs in the bucket after all of the rest of the wort was in the fermentor, so I question whether or not it is that accurate, due to a lot of solids left behind.
OG: 1.030
FG: 1.010

It has been at 1.010 for about the last week, so I am pretty sure that it has finished, and I really should bottle. But I hate to bottle a beer that I am really not going to enjoy.

Firstly, what (if anything) did I do wrong?

Second, I have thought about boiling another pound or so of extract in a small amount of water and adding it to the fermentor to add some body and flavor. Is this a good idea, of should I just bottle it and hope for the best?

 

[lokiua4]

you can go to beersmith.com and you can download it for free for 30 days or just pay the $20.there you can just put in your extract recipe then just click the convert button and it will automatically convert it to partial or allgrain.

 

[COLObrewer]

I don't see anything wrong, if you want more color next time add some higher L crystal. The amber in the original recipe would be what made it darker. This should taste fine after fermentation/conditioning and looks like you had good conversion, what is the unwelcome flavor you speak of?

You could prime with extract when you bottle if you want, that may give more flavor. But not a pound, probably about the same amount as other priming sugar.

 

[goplayoutside]

I second the recommendation to try beersmith. I liked the free trial so much I actually scraped the $20 together when I was still on a grad school budget. It makes a big difference being able to customize your recipe to your equipment with a minimum of work. You could probably do the same thing with an excel spreadsheet and a little research but it would be a lot of work, beersmith has all the ingredients in it already...

 

[eriktlupus]

i'm worried about your stirring while sparging line. when you sparge you either add all your water in batches stir it in,let the mash set for 5min then drain (this is batch sparging in essentia) or you add your water at the same time as your draing without stirring the mash up(this is essentially fly sparging). if you drained while stirring you likely got husk pieces into your boil which will add an astringent(tart,acidic) flavor/taste to your finished beer.

also if you want to convert a recipe without the benifit of a brewing program use the extraction calculator in my sig

 

[homebrewer_99]

3.3+1.25=4.55 LME...according to my chart 4.5 lbs LME is equivilent to 6 lbs of grain and the .05 is 8/10th of an oz.

 

[phishfood]

I am not able to say decisively what the odd taste is. I am thinking that either it is hop bitterness not coming through as such at present, or perhaps astringency as has been mentioned from oversparging/stirring the sparge. But, I just don't know.

So, maybe this evening I will get to bottling it. At the worst, I can drink as a late-in-the-session session beer. At the best, I will be pleasantly surprised in a few weeks.

As far as using brewing software, while I am really cheap, I know that using it will probably save me money in brewing supplies while I am learning. But I am one of those people that likes to understand what is going in with my hobbies. And performing calculations, and experimenting with things as I go, will, for me, give me a better understanding of the process vs. having software do the work for me. At some point, I very likely might use software, but not while I am learning the basic in's and out's of it.

Many thanks to all who have responded!

 

[phishfood]

I brewed this recipe again today, and I think I know what went wrong the first time around.

Picked up a new cheapo digital thermometer to replace the one I destroyed awhile back. I realized that it was way off, and became suspicious of the turkey fryer thermometer that I have used the last couple of brews. Long story short, I borrowed one from a friend, and found that the one I have been using is ~ 10F high at 155F. So I was trying to mash at around 145F.

I upped the grain bill and the LME to make up for the weak, watery beer that I made the first time around, so now I have a beer that is starting out 14 points higher than I was shooting for. Hey, I made a new style!