Help refine my batch sparge

[Netflyer]

I'm through my first AG batch and was wondering if I I'm doing the batch sparge thing correctly.

I completely emptied the first runnings w/out adding any additional water, no mash out. Then I did two rounds of batch sparging, one 3.75 and one 2.5 gallon round. Each time I stirred the mash to attempt to rinse all the grain with the sparge water, I then waited about 10 minutes for the grain to settle, recycled until clear and ran the 2nd and then 3rd runnings like that. I planned on 70% efficiency and got exactly that. I used about 185 degree water for each sparge that when settled ended up at about 168 so I guess in effect the first sparge is the mash out. So am I doing this batch sparge thing correctly? Should I wait longer after I add the sparge water?

Thanks for any help!

 

[Pappers_]

Sounds great!

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Sounds like you did fine.

Everyone tends to do things a bit differently. If it works, and you get good conversions...then great!

I've batch sparged where I fully empty the mash into the kettle, then dump all of my sparge water into the mash and let it sit for 5-10 minutes (like you did, but only one addition).

I've also NOT emptied the mash, then dumped enough sparge water into the mash to get my volume goal at 170. I then empty the entire thing at once.

Both times I've ended up with close to 80% efficiency. It's all about hitting your temps. If you want to boost your efficiencies, try step mashing at different temps. It's a lot easier than you think and because of the longer mash times and higher temp steps, it really boosts your numbers.

 

[TheFlyingSparge]

What did you brew?

 

[aModestMouse]

sounds good to me, i do mine similar as well. do you use a cooler to mash in? if so, i like to preheat mine for a few minutes... holds the mash temp quite well. i usually just add a few degrees to the strike temp and always nail my mash temp. i shoot for 75% - 80% on each batch and haven't had an efficiency issue.

 

[Denny]

You're working too hard! See www.dennybrew.com for details

 

[jescholler]

That's nearly identical to what I do (I also get 70% efficiency almost every time). I think that's a good place to be.

The water for your 2nd sparge was also 185F? I would expect that once you add that to the grains, you would be higher than 168.

 

[Netflyer]

My first AG batch was Orphy's Boddington's Bitter. Yes, the 2nd sparge water was a tad too hot. I didn't realize that my 2nd sparge strike needed to be lower than the first sparge strike. I tell ya, I love beersmith but I haven't figured out how to get the sparge additions to come up with strike temps instead of final temps. It just tells me 168 and I have to guess at the strike...

Thanks for all the feedback guys!

 

[Netflyer]

You're working too hard! See www.dennybrew.com for details

I'm working too hard because I did two rounds? In your article you just did one round. (I think I'm doing everything else the same as you w/out a mashout... I just figured it would be really hard to add 6 gallons of water to my sparge cooler... yes, btw it is a 10 gal. igloo cooler. Do you get the same eff. if you only do one round of batch sparging or less eff?

Thanks!

 

[Denny]

My average efficiency is about 85% with one batch sparge. Last weekend, I ended up at 93%! I've found so little gain from doing 2 sparges that I've decided it isn't worth my time and effort to do it that way.

 

[-TH-]

You're working too hard! See www.dennybrew.com for details

Do you mean that because of the 2 batch sparges and/or because of waiting 10 minutes? Everything else looks like the same as your method.

 

[Schwoopty]

93% is a pretty high efficiency. I would imagine you are getting some flavors that you may not want in your beers like tannin and grainy flavors. I'm always going to shoot for between 70% - 80% to try and avoid those flavors.

Netflyer, sounds like you got your process down pretty nicely. I dont do batch sparging but I wouldnt change anything if you are nailing your efficiency and your beer tastes delicious!

 

[OLDBREW]

I'm through my first AG batch and was wondering if I I'm doing the batch sparge thing correctly.

I completely emptied the first runnings w/out adding any additional water, no mash out. Then I did two rounds of batch sparging, one 3.75 and one 2.5 gallon round. Each time I stirred the mash to attempt to rinse all the grain with the sparge water, I then waited about 10 minutes for the grain to settle, recycled until clear and ran the 2nd and then 3rd runnings like that. I planned on 70% efficiency and got exactly that. I used about 185 degree water for each sparge that when settled ended up at about 168 so I guess in effect the first sparge is the mash out. So am I doing this batch sparge thing correctly? Should I wait longer after I add the sparge water?

Thanks for any help!

I think if you forgot about the third runnings and just topped off your mash tun some after your saach rest, two runnings close to equal combined, would give you a high enough efficiency and cut down your time measuring and heating separate sparges.

You don't really need to rest your sparge water for 10 minutes after you stir it in either. You have already converted everything during the mash rests. Stirring did the job of collecting the sugars with the sparge water, so a vorlauf and draining is all that is needed.

 

[Denny]

Do you mean that because of the 2 batch sparges and/or because of waiting 10 minutes? Everything else looks like the same as your method.

Both, but 2 batch sparges specifically.

 

[Denny]

93% is a pretty high efficiency. I would imagine you are getting some flavors that you may not want in your beers like tannin and grainy flavors. I'm always going to shoot for between 70% - 80% to try and avoid those flavors.

It's so insanely high that I asked Kai to analyze my numbers and he came out with the same. The pH remained in line and I don't expect any off flavors. And I don't "shoot" for any particular number...it just is what it is.

 

[jescholler]

If you don't figure out Beersmith for the 2nd sparge, I use Palmer's calculations from How To Brew:
http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/chapter16-3.html

 

[Netflyer]

Ah, the Palmer calculations! Thanks for that.

Cheers

 

[Netflyer]

I think if you forgot about the third runnings and just topped off your mash tun some after your saach rest, two runnings close to equal combined, would give you a high enough efficiency and cut down your time measuring and heating separate sparges.

You don't really need to rest your sparge water for 10 minutes after you stir it in either. You have already converted everything during the mash rests. Stirring did the job of collecting the sugars with the sparge water, so a vorlauf and draining is all that is needed.

So you are for a mashout, drain and sparge with an equal amount- does that get you 70+? Also I figured the 10 min I needed at least to get the second batch hot but also, doesn't the grain need to settle before vorlauf or doesn't that matter?

 

[OLDBREW]

So you are for a mashout, drain and sparge with an equal amount- does that get you 70+? Also I figured the 10 min I needed at least to get the second batch hot but also, doesn't the grain need to settle before vorlauf or doesn't that matter?

Not really a mashout. More like just getting your total sparge water heated up to around 170-180* in your boiler. Take and top off your mashtun so when you drain it, you'll get about 1/2 the total preboil. Stir real well then slowly vorlauf until clear.
Then drain that into a hdpe plastic bucket.

Add the rest of the sparge water to the mash tun and stir real well.

Take the bucket and transfer the wort to the boiler and start heating the first runnings. Slowly vorlauf the second running until clear then drain into either the bucket, or if able, directly into the boiler. Done!

You should get around 75-80% with the right grind. No need to go any higher.

If you have a second vessel that you can heat the total sparge water in, it goes even faster because you can drain the first runnings directly into the boiler, then start heating the first running while you are doing your vorlauf for the second runnings.

 

[Netflyer]

Thanks, appreciate the procedure!

 

[Denny]

doesn't the grain need to settle before vorlauf or doesn't that matter?

Doesn't matter. It'll settle as you vorlauf.

 

[BierMuncher]

You know...you're only a spare bucket with some holes drilled in the bottom from converting to fly sparging. I picked up 8 points.

 

[Suthrncomfrt1884]

Ya know, BM, I first started AG with a setup similiar to that. Instead of a bucket, I used an old "margarita bucket" (you know, those buckets of margarita mix that you add tequila to and freeze). I put a piece of stainless steel rod through it and hung it over my mash. I wasn't able to fill it all the way up like you've got going though. I also found that I was only getting around 65% eff. where I get 75-80% with batch sparging. I'm sure my process could have been refined though to get 80%.

 

[Netflyer]

You know...you're only a spare bucket with some holes drilled in the bottom from converting to fly sparging. I picked up 8 points.

Well... I started this first AG batch with all good fly sparging intent. I have a 10 gal. Igloo HLT. I spent 1/2 the night trying to put hot water in it and figure out how much heat I was losing through the 24" tube and out the tip of the sparge wand and man, it wasn't a pretty picture. I was scared to put boiling water in it so for lack of a better quicker solution (I had waited long enough - I was brewing this beer on that day) I quickly boned up on batch sparging and used Orphy's batch schedule - got 70%..

Now your set up makes me think it can work and you can get a consistent strike that you can rely on w/out having to boil the sparge water and disfigure my plastic containers. Do you use a crane to hold the bucket up - how many holes and what size?

My concerns about fly sparging is getting 168F water into the mash tun and keeping it that temp over what can be a very long period of time. Your setup makes it look quicker.

It brings up the question of why is fly sparging more eff? Is it more that there is a gradient of fresh water and pH that forces all the sugar out than anything else? Because it is somewhat counter intuitive to leave the grainbed undisturbed filtering all the sparge through it with only one vorlauf. With batch sparging you feel like you are washing all the area of all the grain with each batch addition.

 

[magnj]

I have almost the same method as you and I have found a definite gain to the second batch sparge. So even though I respect Denny, based on my personal experience it helps. But we'll see when my BC comes, with a better grind the couple of points might not be enough to continue measuring out 2 batches of hot water...

 

[OLDBREW]

The thing that you are looking for is consistency with your technique and equipment. That way if you create the recipe based on your efficiency numbers, you produce a close reproduction of that brew using the recipe you have created.

If you can get 75% and it saves you a 1/2 to 1 hour off your brew day over that of a higher efficiency, I'll take the lower consistent efficiency any day!

 

[BierMuncher]

...
It brings up the question of why is fly sparging more eff? ...it is somewhat counter intuitive to leave the grainbed undisturbed filtering all the sparge through it with only one vorlauf. With batch sparging you feel like you are washing all the area of all the grain with each batch addition.

Think of fly sparging as a squeegee effect. Fresh hot water continues to push down through the grain bed and thoroughly rinses off the sugars. Batch sparging simply adds water, dilutes and then drains...always leaving behind some residual sugars.



Here's a link on the earlier discussion.

 

[Netflyer]

Nice link with great info, thanks BM... I'm always worried about temps, if I put 185 in constantly isn't that too hot at some point? I mean obviously you do it and it works but what about all the stuff about tannins and things that start with a phen... that I can't remember... the scary too hot water extracted stuff? Does the gradient from the 154F mash to the top of the 185F water bring the water down low enough when it mixes to solve any 'too hot water' issues? Also, what would you consider a good rate. Guys in the thread did a hybrid on your hybrid (first runnings drain before sparge) and did about 1 qt per min. Yours was one continuous sparge, was your rate about the same? My preboil is just over 8 gal. for 5.25 final volume (I have huge evap. due to wide kettle and cold windy conditions) so for 8 gallons by that rate it should take just over 30 min? Or is that too fast?

Thanks and with 17F and 25mph winds wish me luck today! Brewin' some Guiness Clone for St. Patty's day!

 

[OLDBREW]

Everyone has different heat loss between vessels. Just looking at BM's says massive heat loss if the weather outside is cold.

If you have the grain bed at 168* and start sparging, it is the loss from the HLT to the grainbed that you have to compensate for. If done indoors and you use heavy walled tubing and just a deflector on top of the grainbed you might only need 172* to maintain 168*F in the bed.

When I brewed outside in the cold sometimes my hlt was 195-198*F and the bed was 165* using a sparge arm.

Then I started putting the hose directly into the top of the grainbed with a perforated pie pan to diffuse the water instead of sprinkling it from above. My efficiency didn't change but I was able to drop the temp in the hlt quite a bit which saved fuel trying to maintain the higher temps.

From experimenting I found that the splashing on top of the grainbed really didn't do much at all to improve efficiency. You already need to maintain an inch or so of water above the grainbed, so just feeding diffused fresh water above the bed, maintaining that same level, does the same job with no need of a sparge arm. Heavier wall hot water rated tubing has a better R factor so you don't lose as much heat from that during the transfer from the hlt to the mash/lauter tun.

 

[Netflyer]

Just finished putting my Guinness clone to bed... I got 73% efficiency using the same method I used originally. I completely emptied the tun, then added 185 (2.9 gal) for the first sparge and hit 168 on the nose, then another 2.9 gal second sparge went in at 181 and hit 167...

It was so cold out I really didn't have time to experiment but next time I'll probably either try the modified fly sparge or the batch sparge with only two drains, one being the initial sparge water + mash and the second being the second batch sparge... A drinker of my brews is welding up a brew rack for me at which time I will be able to logistically use my HLT and give the fly sparging a whirl.. For now I'm done brewin' until later this month...

Thanks for all help and suggestions they will all be considered!