HELP! My landlord is a home-brew hater

[spencerholm31]

Hello all,

I could use some advice from the peanut gallery. I live in a three-unit apartment with an unfinished basement (brick walls and cement floors). I just expanded my brew setup to include a Blichmann Propane burner, and I made the mistake of storing the propane tank in the basement. My landlord came over to check the water heater in the basement, and told me to not store propane indoors.

Afterwards, though, my landlord told me that she does not want me to store my carboys (as she refers to as beer bottles) in the basement because she thinks they might give bad impressions to future tenants... what? I'll include photos of my basement storage as well as our email communication, but I'd appreciate any feedback ASAP because she's going to give me her verdict tonight!

Happy brewing
-Spencer

 

[JonM]

Can you keep the fermenters in your unit?

 

[spencerholm31]

By the way, it's a 20 pound propane tank, not a 40 pound propane tank. Don't know if this helps...

 

[spencerholm31]

Can you keep the fermenters in your unit?

That's definitely a possibility. I could move them to my closet and close the doors. The only problem is that the closet temperature is about 55 degrees, whereas the basement is 65 (ideal for the double IPA w/ Wyeast American Ale)

 

[JonM]

I'd move it upstairs and start using Wyeast 1007, 1728, and 2565. All love that temperature.

 

[sudbuddy]

You could probably chain up the tank outside with a bike lock. Also, if you get a Brew Belt you can keep your ferm temp up when it's cooler out. That's how I do my ales all winter.

 

[PGEduardo]

I take it the basement is a "common area"? If so, I'd have to agree with the landlord that it should be kept relatively free of personal items unless previously agreed to.

Dirty laundry, exercise equipment, carboys, storage, etc. might make the space look cluttered or less useable to prospective tenants (unless they're a homebrewer too!) Maybe just try to explain the hobby a bit and she'll OK it?

edit - maybe just tell her you can keep cardboard boxes over the carboys so that they'll be out of direct view?

 

[spencerholm31]

I'd move it upstairs and start using Wyeast 1007, 1728, and 2565. All love that temperature.

I think I'll go ahead and move it into my closet, so that it's "out of sight, and out of mind"

Thanks for the positive suggestion: "Brew more beer! with temperature-appropriate yeast"

I just hope to go about it in a respective way so that my landlord doesn't get angry again

 

[brick_haus]

Well, It's her building... But does she have the right to tell you that you cannot have beer in the basement?? I doubt it.
Does she say you cant have it in ther fridge too?
Does your lease agreement prohibit alchoholic beverages on site?
You may need to negotiate a deal with her, just to keep the peace. Maybe install a Keezer to store your fermenting wort out of plain site? You would then have better temperature control also. Win/Win.


Using/storing propane indoors is not a good idea.

 

[spencerholm31]

I take it the basement is a "common area"? If so, I'd have to agree with the landlord that it should be kept relatively free of personal items unless previously agreed to.

Dirty laundry, exercise equipment, carboys, storage, etc. might make the space look cluttered or less useable to prospective tenants (unless they're a homebrewer too!) Maybe just try to explain the hobby a bit and she'll OK it?

I sent her an email saying how i homebrew for family/friend birthday gifts, holiday gatherings, etc. The weird thing about our basement as a "common area" is that it is simply storage space. Our basement is huge, three rooms. The first room is empty except for the water heater & miscellaneous fuse boxes, etc. The next room has large piles of cardboard boxes, bicycles, and stored furniture. I put my homebrew equipment in the corner of that room literally hidden by the stacks of boxes and furniture. Not sure if I should keep it here, or move it upstairs. (I could definitely get a brew belt for the douple ipa)

 

[spencerholm31]

Well, It's her building... But does she have the right to tell you that you cannot have beer in the basement?? I doubt it.
Does she say you cant have it in ther fridge too?
Does your lease agreement prohibit alchoholic beverages on site?
You may need to negotiate a deal with her, just to keep the peace. Maybe install a Keezer to store your fermenting wort out of plain site? You would then have better temperature control also. Win/Win.


Using/storing propane indoors is not a good idea.

Yea, i definitely messed up with the propane tank in the basement. It's out on the porch now.

Nothing in the lease about alcohol. I agree, keep the peace and do whatever I can to keep my homebrew set up looking clean and streamlined

 

[Hello]

Well, only being able to see one side of the conversation tells me that your landlord is concerned for the safety of tenants with the propane tank being nearby a furnace (which I think my tank says not to do anyway) and then the "wrong impression" with the mass quantity of alcohol fermenting can indeed give people the wrong idea. It really depends on the person who is wandering through that space. It does appear to be a common area, which for me would automatically kill the idea of leaving fermenting beer free for taking. I would ferment in my unit unless you can somehow convince them to make the basement part of your rent and you establish it as a your sole space. Still, the propane would have to go. Hopefully you also explained that you aren't firing up your propane burner indoors. If you are though, don't. You could die.

They seem very reasonable. I'd work with them.

@brick_haus she can tell a tenant that she is not comfortable having gallons of beer fermenting away in a common space but it would behoove her to write in the lease some of the unapproved uses for the common basement space. Seems like a great waste of space anyway so maybe it can be "rented" to the OP.

 

[pegcitybrewer]

Yea, I'm not sure what the laws are where you live but They for sure can't tell me I can't brew beer in my unit. Using/storing propane indoors? They can probably say something about that that though, chain it outside?

Landlords at the best of times are ignorant fools when it comes to beer brewing. They always seem to think you have a shine still on the stove and you're going to blow the house up.

Is it in your lease agreement that you can't brew in your appartment? Because I would keep brewing and if they said otherwise I'd refer them to the lease agreement and ask at which point it states you aren't allowed to brew. If its not illegal they can't stop you from doing it unless they can show cause.

Think of it like having a cat. If there are no pets allowed that would be in the lease, otherwise you're able to have pets. I don't think that you need to go out of your way to piss off your landlord but if theres a polite way to say respectfully I'm entitled to brew beer they can't evict you.

 

[spencerholm31]

Well, It's her building... But does she have the right to tell you that you cannot have beer in the basement?? I doubt it.
Does she say you cant have it in ther fridge too?
Does your lease agreement prohibit alchoholic beverages on site?
You may need to negotiate a deal with her, just to keep the peace. Maybe install a Keezer to store your fermenting wort out of plain site? You would then have better temperature control also. Win/Win.


Using/storing propane indoors is not a good idea.

Yea, i definitely messed up with the propane tank.

Nothing in the lease about alcohol. But I agree that I should try to keep the peace and keep my homebrew setup looking clean and streamlined however I can.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I sent her an email saying how i homebrew for family/friend birthday gifts, holiday gatherings, etc. The weird thing about our basement as a "common area" is that it is simply storage space. Our basement is huge, three rooms. The first room is empty except for the water heater & miscellaneous fuse boxes, etc. The next room has large piles of cardboard boxes, bicycles, and stored furniture. I put my homebrew equipment in the corner of that room literally hidden by the stacks of boxes and furniture. Not sure if I should keep it here, or move it upstairs. (I could definitely get a brew belt for the douple ipa)

Buy/find a couple of moving boxes. Just fold the bottom flaps up inside the box and stick your carboys in there. You can probably cover two carboys with the largest size box from Lowe's/Home Depot. It keeps them out of sight and keeps any light out. That's how I store mine in the basement.

 

[stpug]

If you want to stay there then the answer is easy. You be pleasant, cooperative and flexible. Stay positive and get their input on the changes so that they feel good about the changes.

I would not store propane indoors either. Outside is best.

As for the fermenters, simply ask where in the apartment they would be okay with and do that. Suggest a closet you prefer and see if it works for them.

Courtesy and positivity will go a looooong way.

 

[pegcitybrewer]

I love how quickly everyone jumped on this thread! Super supportive community we have here!

 

[JonM]

Isn't the unit itself a comfortable temperature? Like mid-60s to 70ish? Can't you just leave it in your unit but outside of the closet?

 

[jcoxen]

You'll want to check this with a lawyer but as I understand it...

If you're not damaging the property AND
if you're not breaking any laws...check local fire statutes re:the propane tank...AND
if there's nothing in the lease you signed that says you can't, then you can.

...which means that she can't just arbitrarily decide that you can't do something simply because she doesn't like it. You have a signed contract (lease).

Now, with that said I'd personally be hesitant to go there with my landlord because that turns it into an adversarial situation. If you can come to an amicable understanding without it I'd definitely try that first. Of course, if that doesn't work and she makes it adversarial then consult a lawyer, stick to your legal guns...and find a new place to rent.

 

[cannman]

By the way, it's a 20 pound propane tank, not a 40 pound propane tank. Don't know if this helps...

I can see how the storage of the propane in a tank that large would be of concern especially if kept indoors... Safety first, especially if its a rental with other tenets... and the insurance claim is a solid one.

If you can't keep the tank, perhaps you can store it off site or at a friends house? You might look to do a partial boil stove top...

I've often considered brewing off-site such as a public camp ground for the kicks of it, this may be an option for you. Just make sure open flames are permissible at the time, and get a fire permit if necessary. Get your brew on any way you can, shuttle finished brew back home.

 

[TheCADJockey]

Don't push it in any way, regardless of laws or whatever. The best thing you can do is the "out of sight, out of mind" approach. As a landlord, as soon as you bring up laws and leases... you're on my list and you will catch Hell if you want to cause troubles in my house. Even if it isn't trouble, just assume she is right and stay on her good side. Don't go into it, don't try to explain it, just simply say "You got it!" and get the propane tank outside and move your operation into your personal space.

She should give you advance notice if she is going to show, or come into your personal space at all. This would give you time to keep it out of sight. It is not bad and you aren't doing anything wrong (aside from the propane, honest mistake). Just keep her happy. Angry landlords are not fun.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

You'll want to check this with a lawyer but as I understand it...

If you're not damaging the property AND
if you're not breaking any laws...check local fire statutes re:the propane tank...AND
if there's nothing in the lease you signed that says you can't, then you can.

...which means that she can't just arbitrarily decide that you can't do something simply because she doesn't like it. You have a signed contract (lease).

Now, with that said I'd personally be hesitant to go there with my landlord because that turns it into an adversarial situation. If you can come to an amicable understanding without it I'd definitely try that first. Of course, if that doesn't work and she makes it adversarial then consult a lawyer, stick to your legal guns...and find a new place to rent.

All excellent points made here.

I'd approach it tactfully. First, set up a time to discuss it with her via in person or over the phone. Email/Voicemails leave one sided mentalities and seldom result in open-minded conversations.

Second, approach the conversation with the intent of splitting up the issues into two subjects. Divide and conquer. You've moved the propane outside, which was your bad, so own up to it in person, apologize, and reassure them it's never been used in doors, it was just a lapse in judgement to store it inside. This gives her the sense that she's essentially "won" the authoritative battle softening her up for caving on the homebrew if reasonably explained.

Third go into the discussion of the homebrew. Assure her that it can be "hidden" if that's her concern (which lets be straight, this is an excuse through and through). Covering it in a box prevents light as well so it's a small victory. Also, address "safety" before she even gets to it, it's no higher than ~10ABV, which isn't combustible in anyway. Your homebrewing is less dangerous than a fryer (no oil involved). Also, bolster your case by pointing out you've been a very responsible tenant (hopefully you've paid rent on time, never had any complaints, etc) and then sum it all up with something along the lines of "homebrewing is a hobby you've done for a long time that you thoroughly enjoy, but you're willing to respect their wishes because you don't want to do something behind their back if you haven't sufficiently reassured them."

Lastly, continue homebrewing under their nose and hide it like a 15 year old with a baggy of pot... although you may need a bigger underwear drawer.

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

Don't push it in any way, regardless of laws or whatever. The best thing you can do is the "out of sight, out of mind" approach. As a landlord, as soon as you bring up laws and leases... you're on my list and you will catch Hell if you want to cause troubles in my house.

Exactly! I do everything to not piss off a landlord. Sure, She can't evict you because of home-brew in the basement. But if she doesn't want you there (as in you piss her off about the lay of the law etc), she doesn't need to let you resign when the lease expires.

Keep the peace, just move the carboys upstairs, and explain they aren't dangerous if she still has an issue with it being in your private space. You already moved the propane out which was the real problem.

Good luck and happy brewin'

 

[kombat]

A couple tangents - those carboys should be covered anyway to protect them from light (probably moot if the basement doesn't get much natural sunlight), and don't set glass carboys directly onto concrete. It looks like the one in the back is probably plastic, but the front one definitely looks like glass to me. Concrete is uneven and can create pressure/stress points on the carboy that weaken the glass, increasing the risk of it breaking.

Beyond that, I'd just echo the comments from the others. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar, don't give them a reason to make your life miserable (even if you're legally in the right). Hopefully you've got a plan for moving toward your own place someday, where nobody can tell you what you can and can't do in your basement.

 

[fivepointslow]

Shoot my landlord came a few weeks ago while I was brewing and looked at me like I must be a idiot to make meth in the garage... Until I schooled him up on home brewing. He got a kick out of it. I apologized for not asking permission but he was cool with it.

Your best course of action is to back down like a beat dog and keep everything out of sight. Brew at least 50' away from the building and store the propane elsewhere.

 

[vincentAlpha]

You know, you mentioned that the basement is huge (and a common area), but if there are a couple rooms maybe swing a bit of extra rent their way to have a dedicated space to stick your brew stuff in(and other storage). Could even throw a cheapo lock on to keep wandering neighbours out if you're a bit on the paranoid side (I admit I lean that way, but been burned before so with good reason), it'd let you have a bit more space for your gear cause that is one of the downsides to apartment brewing. They seem no worse then most landlords, usually a bit thick but easily coaxed to do something if it earns them more money and doesn't cost them anything

PS. Not to imply ALL landlords are that way, clearly a few in this thread. I've also interacted my share of good ones along side more than a few... well less than pleasant people to deal with.

 

[mdbrewer1]

I can see how the storage of the propane in a tank that large would be of concern especially if kept indoors... Safety first, especially if its a rental with other tenets... and the insurance claim is a solid one.

If you can't keep the tank, perhaps you can store it off site or at a friends house? You might look to do a partial boil stove top...

I've often considered brewing off-site such as a public camp ground for the kicks of it, this may be an option for you. Just make sure open flames are permissible at the time, and get a fire permit if necessary. Get your brew on any way you can, shuttle finished brew back home.

 

[Bowtiebrewery]

I'll chime in here since I own a 3 family apartment similar in nature to the one that the OP is referencing. Here is how I would handle it:

1. Good that you got the Propane tank outside: No problems there.
2. If the entire space is considered Common area, I would just move them out of the basement.
Rationale: Common space means anyone in the building or visitors to the building can access that space. One day you come down stairs, your homebrew is gone, or the carboy is in pieces and wort/beer is all over the floor. No one is liable for it and the landlord will most likely have to clean it up (sucks for the landlord)

If it was me, I'd keep it in my apartment, as I would rather keep it close rather than far. I don't think the issue that is being raised by the landlord is anti-alcohol, rather she is trying to stave off potential issues in the future, not necessarily with you, but others. Imagine the potential law suit that could occur if a toddler or little kid decided one day to drink your home brew. Not only could you be open to lawsuits but the landlord as well, for not ensuring safe common areas that are reasonably accessible.


Granted this is a very unlikely scenario, but I can tell you that in my property, I've had 2 boilers leak, a hot water tank leak, and a sewage back up all in the last 1.5 years. I have it written into my leases that I am not liable for any damages to anything stored in the basement common areas. After each event, the same tenant has complained about wet moldy things that they left on the floor, expecting me to cop up money to them. I just refer them to the lease.

One other thing to think of as well. Landlords are people too! She is trying to look out for herself, you and the other tenants as well as potential future tenants. Speaking personally, I do all I can to make sure my tenants receive appropriate and prompt responses to any issues that come up that are within my realm of control. Not out there to screw anyone. Also, its in my best interest to keep my tenants for as long as possible so that I don't have to worry about losing money that I am generating from the property.

Hope this helps.

 

[cannman]

Shoot my landlord came a few weeks ago while I was brewing and looked at me like I must be a idiot to make meth in the garage... Until I schooled him up on home brewing. He got a kick out of it. I apologized for not asking permission but he was cool with it.

Your best course of action is to back down like a beat dog and keep everything out of sight. Brew at least 50' away from the building and store the propane elsewhere.

You didn't need permission. What if you were steaming tamales or making a batch of gumbo?

Unless you're like the following, you should be fine:

 

[Silentdrinker]

I used to own a 4 plex, so I was a landlord.

While you already know the dangers of the propane tank, and fixed the issue by storing it outside, you may not be fully aware of other concerns.

Yes, you can brew beer, but some of the advice of telling her to piss off because it's not illegal won't get you anywhere.

I wouldn't allow tenants to have a fish tank because of the potential hazards and damage it could cause. Is it illegal to have a tank? No...

If you're serious about this, here's what I suggest:

Agree to signing an agreement that you both work out the terms of. This will hold you accountable and would include storing the propane tank outside, how it is used, what you can/can not do, if you violate a term what the punishment is... A fine, or a warning...etc. Explain the brewing process to her and go step by step on each thing. This will let her know the process and potential issues or it will change her biased thoughts. But this may bring up other concerns such as water usage. If you're not paying for your own water, she may not like the waste. So be ready for that.

Agree to contact your insurance company (assuming you have renters insurance. If not, get some) to get extra/specific coverage for any possible damages you may cause due to brewing on her property. Or simply get a letter from your agent stating that you are covered for such damages.

She will probably not like the idea of a huge bottle of smelly sticky liquid in her closets. If it breaks or causes smells, it's on her for the repairs. So I would get a tub or something to show her you're protecting her property if something were to break or spill.

And finally agree to pay her either a non refundable deposit or try to work out a refundable deposit for any possible damages you may cause by brewing.

You can also tell her you'll be open to more inspections and can always inform her of your planned brew day in case she wants to inspect. Let her feel in control.

Keep in mind evicting a tenant is a landlords worst nightmare. It is very expensive especially if you don't comply, it can take a long time. She can't force you out or get police to remove you, or change locks..etc. She would have to go through an expensive and time consuming court procedure. All the while she would lose a lot of money. This is 10 fold if you've been a good tenant and paid on time. So you have a lot of leverage to work this out with her.

If this doesn't help, move. Or buy your beer.

Good luck