Help me understand bitterness

[ThePonchoKid]

I think bitterness is what I'm looking at....

I made a smash biab using an oz. of 9.7 AA% hops (centennial pellets) each at 60, 15,10, and 5

I've since kegged and carbed the beer in very short time. 2 week ferment at 65F 2 days cold crash and now 3 days carbed up. Apart from the youngness of this brew what parts of the hopping process might be giving this beer a blackened bitterness?

I'll try to elaborate. When this beer is very cold the bitterness is so powerful that it tastes almost burned, or black, or blinding. At least I think this is the bitterness. When the beer warms up the flavor opens up more and it becomes a bit easier to enjoy, Albeit it needs to be warmer than I'd prefer in order for me appreciate.

So would this flavor/sensation of blinding bitterness have more to do with the 60 min addition of hops? Or do all hopping phases contribute equally?

I'm going to guess that the 60 min hop was most critical.

I'm just not sure if on my next batch i want to drop down to a half oz on the 60 min and leave the 15,10,5 the same? Or if I should experiment by cutting all additions down to a half oz each.

 

[Rehlgood]

I don't know what kind of beer you made but 4 oz is a lot for a normal beer. Other than high gravity and IPA the normal hop rate for me stays around 2 oz per batch. I don't brew anything under 6% either.

 

[DonMagee]

That sounds like astringency and not bitterness, although with the hop schedule I don't know for sure. The two are easy to confuse. How much grain and at what temp did you mash?

You are correct though that more IBU's will be extracted from the additions early in the boil and more flavor/aroma (but still bitterness) will be extracted from hops added later in the boil. A typically method would be to get 75+% of your IBU's in the 60 minute addition, then pick up the remaining with additions under 20 minutes. Assuming a OG of 1.050 that hop schedule will be about 75 IBU so that's a really hoppy and bitter beer.

At a minimum, I'd lower the 60 minute to at least .5 and then add a dry hop of 1-3oz.

The actual bitterness is more a ratio of the gravity and the IBU. So a higher gravity beer can tolerate more IBU before it's 'bitter'. I love this chart (I found it originally in a post from Revvy). It's a good guide to keep you on track when you are starting.

It would also be a good idea to use some brewing software when planning a brew to see how it estimates the IBU's of your beer. It will help you know if you are in style. I like beersmith, but you can find good free software out there as well beercalculus.hopville.com comes to mind.

 

[ThePonchoKid]

I don't know what kind of beer you made but 4 oz is a lot for a normal beer. Other than high gravity and IPA the normal hop rate for me stays around 2 oz per batch. I don't brew anything under 6% either.

alcohol under 6% you mean right?

So I'm probably good on dropping down to 1/2 oz on the 60 15,10,5

I'm more curious to know if too much bitterness is what my taste buds are experiencing. I think it is. At first I assumed that maybe it was too little aroma. But the way the character changes with temperatures... and from what you've just described. Yea, I'm guessing near correct on what's going on

 

[ThePonchoKid]

That sounds like astringency and not bitterness, although with the hop schedule I don't know for sure. The two are easy to confuse. How much grain and at what temp did you mash?

You are correct though that more IBU's will be extracted from the additions early in the boil and more flavor/aroma (but still bitterness) will be extracted from hops added later in the boil. A typically method would be to get 75+% of your IBU's in the 60 minute addition, then pick up the remaining with additions under 20 minutes. Assuming a OG of 1.050 that hop schedule will be about 75 IBU so that's a really hoppy and bitter beer.

At a minimum, I'd lower the 60 minute to at least .5 and then add a dry hop of 1-3oz.

170F strike and 20 min to drop to 160F. So it could very well be a little bit of both. Mind you I really like the wet body and texture from this batch.

first batch was 1048 at the aforementioned 170F strike

second batch of the same was 1054 at a 166F strike

 

[gwdraper4]

I've used a similar hoping rate before and I did not think it had a bite to it. Does this sensation seem to close the back of your throat up and taste burnt? If so, then what you are experiencing is astringency. It could be due to improper mash PH, oversparging your grains, or a bacterial infection. Did you take a gravity reading towards the end of sparging or test your PH? What type of water do you have to brew with? What is your carbonation level like? Sorry for so many questions, just trying to help nail down the problem so it can be avoided in the future!

 

[chickypad]

I'm wondering about your water too. You said it was a smash, all base malt in alkaline water would probably give too high a pH which could explain astrignency. I'm far from a water expert but something to check.

 

[2PintsLow]

Also with a mash temp of 170 or higher you are more apt to extract tannins causing higher bitterness and astrigency. Granted the mouthfeel is going to be great, you will have higher bitterness. You may want to consider dropping your strike water by a few degrees as well to see if that helps.

 

[ThePonchoKid]

I've never looked at these before, but here's my local water.

http://www.toronto.ca/water/publications/pdf/drinking_water_analysis_summary_2011.pdf

My HBS tells me the water is fine, and all that this crap about salts is just that. He's been in the business and in my region for some time. He sells various salts. He might be exaggerating a bit, but I suppose he's suggesting the water isn't a highly critical concern.

It tastes a bit burnt, or very slightly metallic? Most of the taste unfolds at the back of my throat. A little sweetness on the tip of my tongue. Front and center on my pallet is nothing. It's too confusing to distinguish

If I dropped the grain in at 170F and it took 20 minutes to get down to 160F there's some astringency most likely, no? The OG was 1048, and as I mentioned I did a second identical batch with a strike at 166F and got around 1054.

Serving carbs are at around 9psi and it seems fully carbed now. Mind you only 80 hours it took.

It tasted like freaking fantastic nectar before I carbed it. With a very nice fuzzy warm imprint on the tongue after several swigs

it's a 78 IBU at maybe 4.9% alcohol 10lb of marris otter, 4oz centennial

Anyhow the second batch will be cold crashing this sunday and carbing next tuesday night. By then I might do another of the same but while trying to distribute around 2oz worth of centennial pellets.

I think it's a bit of both astringency and bitterness, but mostly bitterness. But that is a wild guess. I think that I need to find general examples of what the two definitions are, outside of the realm of beer. And then learn to bring it back home (to beer).

 

[chickypad]

I agree with the LHBS guy that your water is pretty nice. You probably can get away with the majority of recipes with minimal to no adjustment, but I don't agree with him that you can always just ignore the water. I plugged your numbers into the EZ water calculator (had to guess at mash water volume) and the pH does come out on the high end with no crystal/speciatly malts in there, but it's not outrageously so.

That back of the tongue/throat sensation does sound like astringency, but you're probably right in that it's too bitter. That's a pretty unbalanced beer at 1.048 with 78 IBU's, especially with no crystal or specialty malt to back it up.

 

[ThePonchoKid]

and a little crystal or specialty malt does what and why?

Would a half pound of crystal suffice to round things off?

Thanks for checking out the water, I appreciate it

 

[chickypad]

I didn't mean to suggest you'd need it in your recipe if you want to keep it a smash. It's just that crystal (and other malts, especially roasted/toasted) bring down the pH of the mash without having to add salts.
That' s I assume what the LHBS guy was getting at. Most of the time you're fine but with certain grain bills with certain water profiles you have to pay more attention.

Hope that helps a little. I have noticed a big difference with my results on a few styles in particular since I started paying attention to water more.

 

[ThePonchoKid]

I don't care if it remains a smash, but I am trying to make only slight adjustments so that I can make the same thing over and over and see how those slight adjustments change the character of the beer. 1/2lb crystal will do? Just take out 1/2 lb of the marris and replace it?

I'm going to try 2oz of pellets as well. Maybe as little as a half oz. on the 60 and the rest in the 15,10,5

 

[mbobhat]

You said it tasted fine before bottling. What did you use to sanitize bottles with?

Edit: Nevermind I guess you kegged. Should read the posts fully...I think the carbon dioxide has something to do with perception of flavors, I read somewhere. Could be more bite from the CO2 giving you the astringency/bitterness

 

[ThePonchoKid]

kegged. star san.

the carbonation and colder temps 34F is what blew the flavors up and out of proportion in my opinion. because even now if i let a glass sit at room temp, it starts to open up wonderfully.

 

[chickypad]

I don't care if it remains a smash, but I am trying to make only slight adjustments so that I can make the same thing over and over and see how those slight adjustments change the character of the beer. 1/2lb crystal will do? Just take out 1/2 lb of the marris and replace it?

I'm going to try 2oz of pellets as well. Maybe as little as a half oz. on the 60 and the rest in the 15,10,5

Sorry, I was kind of muddling 2 issues there - the pH thing and then the idea of balance. You could just drop your hops and up the maris otter base to get something more balanced with regard to BU:GU (like DonMagee was discussing). Then from there try experimenting with adding different specialty malts.

I've been doing a similar thing with an IPA recipe I have with maris otter as the base - and adding in one specialty malt at a time. I've done several different crystal malts, victory, munich, next up this weekend vienna. It's fun to see the subtle differences.

 

[mbobhat]

The bitterness will subside with aging. I made a Ordinary Bitter that was way too bitter due to less than efficient mash and it was almost undrinkable at first. Mellowed out a bunch with some aging. Higher keg temps will let it age quicker.

Now you got me worried about my brew tasting off since I just carbed it yesterday and will be hopefully serving in three days. Tasted good going in, but not too bitter

 

[ThePonchoKid]

The bitterness will subside with aging. I made a Ordinary Bitter that was way too bitter due to less than efficient mash and it was almost undrinkable at first. Mellowed out a bunch with some aging. Higher keg temps will let it age quicker.

Now you got me worried about my brew tasting off since I just carbed it yesterday and will be hopefully serving in three days. Tasted good going in, but not too bitter

it's good to be reminded that i kegged this a week sooner than i should of and carbed it up fast with a little shake rattle n roll. i think i'll take it out of the fridge early next week when i keg the second batch. i need more kegs lol

it would be interesting to see how it tastes 2 months later after sitting in the keg fully carbed at room temp