Help me make a good hoppy beer

[Coastarine]

Alright, I've been messing around in beersmith with my water profile and with these mineral additions I can come pretty darn close to burton on trent:

17g Gypsum
9g Epsom Salt
.5g Calcium Cholride
5g Baking Soda
3g chalk

They always told me science was fun!

Edit: as I keep reading, though, I might want to reign in some things like the SO4. "At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea."

 

[Coastarine]

And here we are with no additives. Very soft water:

Seems to me that most minerals in my water are below range for most any beer according to palmer, but if you had to pick the best thing for my water, it would be very low IBU and very pale in color. Oh! malt liqour!

 

[Coastarine]

After some more reading I'm trying to come up with a target water for my IPA, and here's what I've got so far combining some trends that I see in various city water profiles with what John Palmer says about each mineral:

Ca:.....150
Mg:.....30
Na:.....55
SO4:...350
Cl:......25
HCO3:.200

Ca, Mg, and HCO3 from Palmers ranges and the color of most IPA's placed on the above graphic. High sulfate for the high IBU's. Sound good?

To get that I'd add:
7.8g Gypsum
0.3g table salt
5.8g epsom salt
0.5g CaCl
3.4g baking soda
1.9g chalk

As a side note, if you had told me less than a year ago when I was extract brewing that I'd be doing this today after building my brew stand I would have laughed at you.

 

[mew]

That's alotta s*** you're adding to your water. Sometimes the numbers work out but the beer ends up tasty salty or chalky. If I were you, I'd mix up my water beforehand, taste it, and then only if it still tastes like water would I brew with it. Good work with the water report!

 

[Coastarine]

To get to the burton on trent water that is a lot of s***, but for my target water, that totals under 20 grams of stuff into 5 gallons. 20 grams of anything is pretty small.

 

[TeleTwanger]

If you can measure 3/10ths of a gram of salt then go for it I guess. I've got soft water and I don't do anything other than add a little gypsum sometimes or nothing at all.

 

[Coastarine]

If you can measure 3/10ths of a gram of salt then go for it I guess. I've got soft water and I don't do anything other than add a little gypsum sometimes or nothing at all.

Hah, you've got a point there. So far its all theory and the voices in my head tell me not to round.

Here's a question: If 5.2 mash stabilizer "locks the mash pH at 5.2", why is that good? Based on Palmer's graphic, 5.2 is pretty low. Is it because Palmer's graphic says Residual Alkalinity Mash pH?

 

[korndog]

That's alotta s*** you're adding to your water. Sometimes the numbers work out but the beer ends up tasty salty or chalky. If I were you, I'd mix up my water beforehand, taste it, and then only if it still tastes like water would I brew with it. Good work with the water report!

+1 I would go easy. Add some Gypsum and call it a day on your next batch.
I have overdone this and ended up getting blasted by judges for salty chalky yuk.

 

[TeleTwanger]

Hah, you've got a point there. So far its all theory and the voices in my head tell me not to round.

Here's a question: If 5.2 mash stabilizer "locks the mash pH at 5.2", why is that good? Based on Palmer's graphic, 5.2 is pretty low. Is it because Palmer's graphic says Residual Alkalinity Mash pH?

Locking your mash ph is good because the mash ph is all that matters. No matter what your water ph is or what grains you use the 5.2 will set the mash at 5.2. So if it's high or low dark or pale it doesn't matter.
Mash ph is a combination of water ph and grains used.

 

[Coastarine]

Locking your mash ph is good because the mash ph is all that matters. No matter what your water ph is the 5.2 will set the mash at 5.2. So if it's high or low it doesn't matter.

I understand that, but why 5.2? According to the graphic 5.2 would be low.

I think this might kind of explain it. From "How to Brew"

This residual alkalinity will cause an all-base-malt mash to have a higher pH than is desirable (ie. >6.0), resulting in tannin extraction, etc. To counteract the RA, brewers in alkaline water areas like Dublin added dark roasted malts which have a natural acidity that brings the mash pH back into the right range (5.2-5.6). To help you determine what your RA is, and what your mash pH will probably be for a 100% base malt mash, I have put together the following nomograph...

So the key is that on the graphic those pH values are what your all base malt mash would be, but once you add the dark malts it brings it back down to what you want it to actually be, which is 5.2-5.6. That clears it up.

 

[Saccharomyces]

So the key is that on the graphic those pH values are what your all base malt mash would be, but once you add the dark malts it brings it back down to what you want it to actually be, which is 5.2-5.6. That clears it up.

In my experience depending on your water hardness, Five Star 5.2 results in a mash pH between 5.2 and 5.6 without additional salts. This is the maximum conversion efficiency range. Kaiser's pH Experiment is a good read.

 

[moti_mo]

I agree with the late addition hops to increase the flavor and aroma profile. In addition, heinz57 is right on with going as dry as possible if you really want those hops to jump out at you. My best IPAs always finish the dryest, and when they don't I'm always left wanting more kick from the hops.

 

[korndog]

I agree with the late addition hops to increase the flavor and aroma profile. In addition, heinz57 is right on with going as dry as possible if you really want those hops to jump out at you. My best IPAs always finish the dryest, and when they don't I'm always left wanting more kick from the hops.

Well, I agree to an extent. I have had some pale ales ferment with US05 that have gone a little too dry on me. This is the balance that is key to brewing APA's, IPA's, and DIPA's in my view. If you can get full attenuation while keeping a good malt backbone, AND get all the hop character you seek, then you have made the perfect pale in my opinion.

 

[moti_mo]

Sure, you definitely want to maintain some malt backbone, there's no doubt about that. But when I think of my favorite IPA's, where the hops really shine, they're pretty dry so that the malt backbone doesn't drown out the hop kick. E.g.: Avery IPA, Stone IPA, O'Dell's IPA. These all have pretty low final gravities, for example Avery's is ~1.011 (~1.4% potential abv remaining as sugars). So when I say that the dryer IPAs let the hops shine, I think getting to a final gravity somewhere between 1.011 and 1.016. That's ideal for me, at least...my best IPA had an original gravity around 1.065 and final gravity around 1.011 - ~7.4% a.b.v., fairly dry, allowing the Simcoe hops to be highlighted.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Sure, you definitely want to maintain some malt backbone, there's no doubt about that. But when I think of my favorite IPA's, where the hops really shine, they're pretty dry so that the malt backbone doesn't drown out the hop kick.

I agree. I would like an APA to finish around 1.012 and an IPA around 1.010, and the IPA will have 1-2% more ABV. That is a big difference. I have a couple of IPA recipes I haven't brewed yet, in both cases I used sugar as part of the fermentables to ensure I get predicted >80% attenuation in BeerSmith.

 

[korndog]

Sure, you definitely want to maintain some malt backbone, there's no doubt about that. But when I think of my favorite IPA's, where the hops really shine, they're pretty dry so that the malt backbone doesn't drown out the hop kick. E.g.: Avery IPA, Stone IPA, O'Dell's IPA. These all have pretty low final gravities, for example Avery's is ~1.011 (~1.4% potential abv remaining as sugars). So when I say that the dryer IPAs let the hops shine, I think getting to a final gravity somewhere between 1.011 and 1.016. That's ideal for me, at least...my best IPA had an original gravity around 1.065 and final gravity around 1.011 - ~7.4% a.b.v., fairly dry, allowing the Simcoe hops to be highlighted.

I just pulled a Stone IPA out of the cooler. I forgot how simply elegant this beer was. I consider this beer to be well balanced and not overly dry. I guess we are in agreement here.

 

[moti_mo]

Yeah, Stone IPA is a doozy. Love it.

 

[Coastarine]

Brewing as I type. Ed's IPA.

 

[Coastarine]

Ca:.....150
Mg:.....30
Na:.....55
SO4:...350
Cl:......25
HCO3:.200

To get that I'd add:

7.8g Gypsum
0.3g table salt
5.8g epsom salt
0.5g CaCl
3.4g baking soda
1.9g chalk

Using this water. If it comes out salty or chalky, oh well, lesson learned, but I wanted to do it just once where I got my water 100% by the numbers. I did a seperate mineral addition to the strike water and both sparges scaled to the correct size.

 

[Saccharomyces]

Will look forward to your results. You can't go wrong with that recipe..

 

[Coastarine]

Well the beer should turn out great. Good efficiency, although not as good as I had planned (85 instead of 90, yeah I know, boo hoo, but my OG is just slightly low but that's ok. 1.071). 5 gallon batch in a 15 gallon kettle is great, although you CAN boil over, but you gotta really crank the flame and not pay attention. The mini fan did its job. Also, I got a really good fast chill using my pump and cfc.

However.

I had my fancy USB probe thermometer in the HLT and my laptop on my counter. I turned up the flame on the HLT and burned the wire of my probe thermometer. Maybe I can fix it by cutting out the burnt portion and splicing wires. We'll see tomorrow.

Later, after chilling by recirculating back into the kettle, I whirlpooled and waited 20 minutes. I turned the pump back on to transfer into the carboy and it sounded like normal but wasn't moving wort. I'll deal with that tomorrow.

If anyone wants to diagnose or suggest a course of action, I have a self priming pump that I put on the output (cold) side of the chiller because it doesn't handle the heat. I use a paint strainer rig to contain hops. I recirc'd the wort, then used the pump to pull the wort out of the chiller, so during the rest it had air in it, in case that helps.

 

[korndog]

Later, after chilling by recirculating back into the kettle, I whirlpooled and waited 20 minutes. I turned the pump back on to transfer into the carboy and it sounded like normal but wasn't moving wort. I'll deal with that tomorrow.

If anyone wants to diagnose or suggest a course of action, I have a self priming pump that I put on the output (cold) side of the chiller because it doesn't handle the heat. I use a paint strainer rig to contain hops. I recirc'd the wort, then used the pump to pull the wort out of the chiller, so during the rest it had air in it, in case that helps.

Did you disconnect from CFC and try to start a gravity drain? How did you end up draining? Sounds to me like your pump wasn't priming and the wort had nowhere to go. I have small dip tubes and find tat I need to bleed the lines to get it started sometimes.

 

[Coastarine]

Well since it was cooled I just poured the five gallons into a bottling bucket and then just let that drain into the carboy. Any aeration at that point could only help.

As I think about what I saw the pump doing the "pump out" line had filled with wort on the uphill portion to the kettle, but the "pump in" line was empty. It seemed to just be churning the wort in the out line. I wonder if the backpressure of the wort in the out line somehow kept it from priming. I really don't know the inner workings of a self primping pump, but I want to say that this isn't a clog.

 

[Coastarine]

The good news is that the pump is fine. I gravity-fed it some water this morning and once it got a bite of that it went like normal. I don't know why it wouldn't self-prime, but once I got it working again it was able to self prime. I think from now on I'll leave wort in the chiller/pump while I whirlpool to make sure it'll start up again.

Later I'll see about the probe thermometer.

 

[korndog]

The good news is that the pump is fine. I gravity-fed it some water this morning and once it got a bite of that it went like normal. I don't know why it wouldn't self-prime, but once I got it working again it was able to self prime. I think from now on I'll leave wort in the chiller/pump while I whirlpool to make sure it'll start up again.

Later I'll see about the probe thermometer.

Sounds right. Or you could put a bleeder valve somewhere in the line.

 

[Coastarine]

Just took a gravity after 9 days in primary at 66 F, it came out 1.018 down from 1.071, right where I predicted. 73% apparent attenuation so that's good.

Color is sort of a dull gold, still very cloudy, not very attractive yet.

But D*** that is some serious hop bitterness! Thank you gypsum! It has some tangyness, alcohol and hop harshness, and yeastiness typical of green beer, but I think it is going to come out great. I can't wait to dry hop it. Still going to give it a few more days before cold crash for a week, then keg.

 

[Coastarine]

Holy bitter.

Not real great. Maybe after plenty of age.

 

[s3n8]

It will be much more mellow after a month in the bottle. This beer is like 2 weeks old? Its still way green. For IPAs, I do 2 - 3 week primary, 2 week dry hop, month in the bottle before I even taste it. Its usually best about 3 - 6 months after bottling.

 

[TeleTwanger]

^^^+1 on aging...I've been drinking my IPA that was bottled 1.5 weeks ago and it has angina causing bitterness that will mellow eventually.

 

[Coastarine]

It spent 12 days in primary at 68, then cold crashed for a week. It has only been a couple days in the keg. Once it is carb'd I'll probably pull it out of the keezer and age it at room temp to help it along.