Help check my mineral additions?

[NeoBrew]

I'm still working on wrapping my head around water chemistry. Bru 'n Water has been an enormous help as it lets me play around with the numbers and see the affects. My focus at this point has been to shoot for a water style and then try to balance the PH for the mash. (I BIAB) I start with 100% RO water.

I've been confused by a few recipes that Bru 'n Water leads me to believe I need acid additions to get the PH dialed in. If I'm starting with RO water and adding a fairly modest amount of minerals, how is it that I need acid? Is the raise in PH coming from the malts? 8 oz of acid malt seems to balance things out to 5.37PH. I've never used acid malt before. Does this seem right? Any advice would be appreciated.

Here is my water profile I used the "Chimay" profile as my target. The recipe follows.

Bru'n Water v.3.4 Water Adjustments
Belgian Double w/ Sweet Orange Peels

Profiles (ppm) Exist Mash Finished
Ca 80 21 21
Mg 33 3 3
Na 0 8 8
SO4 0 26 26
Cl 0 29 29
HCO3 0 16 NA
SO4/Cl Ratio 0.9

Batch Volume 5.50 Gallons
Total Mash 8.10 Gallons
Mash Dilution 8.10 Gallons
Total Sparge 1.20 Gallons
Sparge Dilution 1.20 Gallons

Mineral Additions (gm) Mash Sparge
Gypsum . 0.8 0.1
Calcium Chloride 1.2 0.2
Epsom Salt 0.8 0.1
Mag Chloride 0.0 0.0
Canning Salt 0.0 0.0
Baking Soda 0.0 Not Recommended
Chalk . 0.0 Not Recommended
Pickling Lime 0.0 Not Recommended

Mash Acid Additions
0.00 (ml)
Sparge Acid Addtions
Phosphoric 10.00 % 0.55 (ml)


Recipe Specifications

Batch Size: 5.50 gal
Boil Size: 7.78 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 10.9 SRM
Estimated IBU: 19.9 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:

Amt                   Name                                     Type          #        %/IBU         
10 lbs                Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM)           Grain         1        72.7 %        
1 lbs                 Carapils (Briess) (1.5 SRM)              Grain         2        7.3 %         
8.0 oz                Acidulated (Weyermann) (1.8 SRM)         Grain         3        3.6 %         
8.0 oz                Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM)                 Grain         4        3.6 %         
6.0 oz                Biscuit Malt (23.0 SRM)                  Grain         5        2.7 %         
6.0 oz                Caravienne Malt (22.0 SRM)               Grain         6        2.7 %         
1.50 oz               Styrian Goldings [5.00 %] - Boil 60.0 mi Hop           7        19.9 IBUs     
1.00 Items            Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins)        Fining        8        -             
1.00 oz               Orange Peel, Sweet (Boil 5.0 mins)       Spice         9        -             
0.50 oz               Coriander Seed (Boil 5.0 mins)           Spice         10       -             
1.0 pkg               Trappist High Gravity (Wyeast Labs #3787 Yeast         11       -             
1 lbs                 Candi Sugar, Amber (75.0 SRM)            Sugar         12       7.3 %

 

[ajdelange]

... lets me play around with the numbers and see the affects.

Good way to learn.

I start with 100% RO water.

Profiles (ppm)
Exist Mash Finished
Ca 80 21 21
Mg 33 3 3
Na 0 8 8
SO4 0 26 26
Cl 0 29 29
HCO3 0 16 NA
SO4/Cl Ratio 0.9

I'm confused here. If you start with RO how can the existing water have 80 mg/L Ca and 33 Mg?

I've been confused by a few recipes that Bru 'n Water leads me to believe I need acid additions to get the PH dialed in. If I'm starting with RO water and adding a fairly modest amount of minerals, how is it that I need acid? Is the raise in PH coming from the malts?

Yes. Some malts (pale, lightly kilned) are bases. Some malts (dark, roast, highly kilned and sauermalz) are acids.

8 oz of acid malt seems to balance things out to 5.37PH. I've never used acid malt before. Does this seem right? Any advice would be appreciated.

The amount of acid/sauermalz required depends on the pH you want to hit, the acidity or alkalinity of the grains you use and their relative proportions, the alkalinity of the water and the mash thickness. The spreadsheets try to model all these things but don't do it very well so that estimated mash pH's can be off by quite a bit. Nevertheless the spreadsheets are fairly accurate quite a lot of the time. 'Trust but verify' as RR said. Use a spreadsheet for guidance but verify with a pH reading on a test mash. Sauermalz additions up to say 4% of grist are usually considered safe in terms of no added sour flavor from this malt but some recognize that it, as does any specialty malt, adds flavors/complexity which most consider desirable.

 

[NeoBrew]

I'm confused here. If you start with RO how can the existing water have 80 mg/L Ca and 33 Mg?

I have portions of my city water report entered into the source water, but then use 100% RO in Bru n Water, so I don't believe that 80/33 is used in the calculations. That column is labeled "Exist". I think the 21 and 3 are what the software is using. I could be wrong though.

Use a spreadsheet for guidance but verify with a pH reading on a test mash.

I seem to be having fairly good luck with Bru n Water. I have a Hanna Prep meter and I've only had one batch where I had to scramble to add phosphoric acid during the mash. It was actually an earlier version of this recipe. I am hoping that using saurmalz will help stabilize things a little better. Last time I added the phosphoric to the mash just after dough in.

Thanks for the info. Sounds like I'm on the right track. We'll find out next weekend when I brew.

 

[Yooper]

I wouldn't add the epsom salt- it's not needed and increases the magnesium and the sulfate.

I'm not sure about the profile- it seems wonky if you're using 100% RO water. Check to make sure you show 100% dilution where the dilution amount is on the spreadsheet.

8 ounces of acid malt is a lot, starting with RO water, so something isn't right.

 

[ajdelange]

8 ounces of acid malt is a lot, starting with RO water, so something isn't right.

It's at 4.1% which does seem a bit high as it gives an estimated mash pH of 5.33 (but this estimate is as shaky as any other). I'd probably go down to 2.8% which gives an estimated pH of 5.37 which is apparently what he wants. In fact I'd probably go to 2% for an estimated pH of 5.42.

 

[NeoBrew]

So here is where I start to get lost.

First, I zeroed out the existing water values just as a test. They don't change any of the other calculations. And yes, I have a 100% dilution with RO water set up.

According to Beersmith I have 3.6% acidulated malt. For some reason Bru n Water shows the same grain recipe with the acidulated at 3.9%. This results in an estimated mash PH of 5.37 If I take out the epsom addition it goes to 5.38. That is trivial as far as I can tell.

Should I be shooting for 5.37? What would you recommend for this beer? I'm really just shooting for somewhere within the range of 5.2-5.5. I don't know any better.

Also, I can lower the mash PH by adding more Gypsum and Calcium Chloride, but Bru n water flags the addition if I go above what I have. I believe that is just because it exceeds my target water profile. I can still stay way below 50 ppm of calcium. Which should be ok, right?

 

[NeoBrew]

Well, it's always interesting isn't it...

The above recipe had too much acidulated malt. The PH was at about 4.9 10 minutes into the mash. Compensated with 3 grams of chalk which brought it back in line to about 5.2. I left it there and at 30 minutes in I could see my mash efficiency was way low. So I decided to punt and ground 2lbs more of base malt and added it to the mash. This brought my preboil gravity to a respectable 1.051.

It's anybody's guess how this is going to come out at this point. But every experience is a learning one. My best guess is that the acid malt has much more lactic acid than Brunwater predicted. But even if I put the acid malt strength setting to it's maximum of 2, it still predicts a mash PH of 5.17.

I guess next time I'll halve the acid malt as part of the mash in and hold some in reserve for after I check PH.