Hefeweizen - what went wrong?

[mtbaesl]

Hey guys, I brewed a Hefeweizen a little ways back. The result was below expectations. The beer came out tasting pretty good, but just didn't come out 'hefeweizen' enough, it was if I mixed my hefeweizen with a pilsener. The banana or clove character really doesn't stand out enough, and the beer isnt quite as cloudy as I would expect. This is the 2nd wheat beer I've made recently that came out this way (the other was a dunkelweizen). I submitted it to a homebrew competition for some feedback, knowing it wouldn't do well. Here are some of the comments:

AROMA: very light banana aroma, aroma is a bit light. very low aroma profile, hints of clove
APPEARANCE: slightly cloudy, very little head. Good color, maybe a bit more clear than i would expect.
FLAVOR: Carbonation bites right up front, going into a banana flavor and going away to a very big dryness, slight tinge of tartness. Distinct tartness dominates palate, after swallow hints of clove and banana linger, very dry finish.
MOUTHFEEL: Good creaminess, carbonation on the low end, light body. The dryness of this beer takes away from the overall creaminess.
OVERALL: Very drinkable beer, but the dryness takes away from the style, the aroma did come out a bit more as the beer warmed. Though not quite to style, this is an interesting beer. The tartness and dry finish make this a nice lawnmower beer. Hints of banana and clove suggest weizen, but they need to be much more distinct and forward.

So the question is, where did I go wrong? And what do I need to do to get my weizens where I want them? I tend to question whether it could be the yeast choice, but I'm sure many have made quite a good number of weizens with wyeast 3068. And before you ask, no I did not use a starter on this latest batch, maybe I should have. I'll post the recipe and brewing specifics below.

Thanks for any help you can provide, Mark. :rockin:




Zugspitze Breath Weizen
Brew Type: All Grain
Style: Weizen/Weissbier
Batch Size: 5.25 gal
Boil Volume: 6.71 gal Boil Time: 60 min
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.0 % Equipment: Brew Pot (7.5 gal) and Igloo Cooler (10 Gal)
Actual Efficiency: 72.9 %


Ingredients Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.00 lb Pilsner (2 Row) UK (1.0 SRM) Grain 50.0 %
5.00 lb Wheat Malt, Red (6.0 SRM) Grain 50.0 %
1.00 oz Hallertauer [3.90%] (60 min) Hops 14.1 IBU
1.00 tbsp Buffer 5.2 (Mash 60.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs Weihenstephan Weizen (Wyeast Labs #3068) Yeast-Wheat

Beer Profile Estimated Original Gravity: 1.050 SG (1.044-1.052 SG) Measured Original Gravity: 1.052 SG
Estimated Final Gravity: 1.012 SG (1.010-1.014 SG) Measured Final Gravity: 1.016 SG
Estimated Color: 5.5 SRM (2.0-8.0 SRM) Color [Color]
Bitterness: 14.1 IBU (8.0-15.0 IBU) Alpha Acid Units: 0.7 AAU
Estimated Alcohol by Volume: 4.9 % (4.3-5.6 %) Actual Alcohol by Volume: 4.7 %
Actual Calories: 233 cal/pint


Mash Profile Name: Single Infusion, Medium Body Mash Tun Weight: 9.00 lb
Mash Grain Weight: 10.00 lb Mash PH: 5.4 PH
Grain Temperature: 72.0 F Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F
Sparge Water: 3.28 gal Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE

Name Description Step Temp Step Time
Mash In Add 12.50 qt of water at 167.7 F 152.0 F 60 min
Mash Out Add 7.00 qt of water at 202.8 F 168.0 F 10 min


Notes
Fermented 5 days at 64F, then at 70F.

 

[markg388]

I don't think your problem is any one thing in particular, but a bunch of little things. If you want it to be more hefeweizenny, you gotta think like an old-school German brewmaster who's been doing it his whole life. He'd probably do a long decoction mash with german malts over UK or USA. Acid rest for the PH buffer he doesn't get to use, and then a protein rest which supposedly brings out precursors to the clove phenols. Alot of people say decoction-mashing dosen't do much, but it's at least worth trying. I do it on mine and it has a thick, creamy head.

Seeing as you finished at 1.016 and the beer was still dry tasting, something went wrong there. Maybe try a different kind of yeast, or make a starter or both. Hope it helps!

 

[ghpeel]

Sounds to me like you need to ferment warmer than 64F if you want to get those rich hefe esters. Try it at 68-70F.

As far as the theory that overpitching reduces hefe esters, my friend made a dunkelweissen and pitched it on the whole cake from a hefe, which would be MASSIVE overpitched, and the dunkel came out tasting of rich dark cherries with a great malty backbone. That beer was pitched at 70F at allowed to rise at will, and was freakin' awesome if you like hefe yeast funky flavors.

 

[homebrewer_99]

I make a lot of Hefe Weizens. Been brewing them since 1994. Been drinking them since 1975.

From what I gather (from your write-up) is your primary fermentation temps were a bit low. I ferment mine at about 72F and get some great banana esters.

I see your primary is at 64F. Depending on the yeast strain the lower temps can emphasize the clove flavor.

How long was it at 70F, and did you rack to a secondary?

I always secondary my HWs because the time allows more of the yeast to drop out. Sometimes the beer gets too clear so I compensate by sucking some of the yeast up during racking (to the keg or bottling bucket). IMO, having less yeast in the bottle makes for a cleaner tasting brew.

I can't figure out how they said your beer was dry with an FG of 1.016.

From what I've learned about sparging, you are supposed to stop when the gravity gets down to 1.008. Using 3.28 gals to sparge with you have gone below that. Based on that you may have used too much sparge water which could lead to tannins which could be described as "dry" in some ways.

Just my opinion.

 

[bsdx]

I agree the temperature could be higher. Another thing that comes to mind, did you over-oxygenate? If you didn't oxygenate at all, or even just aerated (not 100% oxygen), then never mind. I think I heard over-oxygenation can make the yeast produce water instead of alcohol.

 

[Ouroboros]

I think an acid rest to lower pH takes quite awhile, but pH lowering is not your only goal. I'd stick with the 5.2 buffer, but add about an hour or so around 100F in your mash schedule to produce ferulic acid, a precursor to the "clovey" 4-vinylguaicol.

Then you can do a decoction to get to your saccharification temperature. I've heard to skip the protein rest because you want all of the wheat proteins to help create that big frothy head. The clove precursor is generated at lower temperatures. I accidentally missed my mash temperature and ended up doing a 30 min protein rest (around 120) when I made my first hefeweizen. The result was a less-than-impressive head that fades fast. Maybe that was too long, I don't know.

It did give me the chance to do a triple-decoction mash though. I did a second decoction to get to saccharification temperature, and a third to mashout. I ended up with much higher efficiency and a much darker beer than I anticipated.

Also, lower fermentation temperatures aren't necessarily great with weihenstephan weizen yeast. I fermented at 64F because I like clove flavor and thought I liked it better than the banana, but I ended up realizing that the clove and spice notes really need the fruity esters for balance. Good news is that the clove mellows nicely over time.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

Try replacing a pound or two of that pilsner with Munich Light. I have found just a little increase in the malt profile makes a Hefe with much more character.

Frankly, I can't stay out of my latest batch and will have to brew it again in a few weeks.