Hefeweizen in Brewzilla

[rmr9]

I’ve mentioned this in a few other posts but since getting my robobrew/brewzilla several years ago I have not had success brewing a Hefeweizen on the system. I’ve tried 3 times and always ended up with horrible efficiency and just underwhelming thin results. Contrast this with my old cooler system back in the day when I could crank out delicious correct gravity Hefeweizens…very disappointing since they’re one of my favorite styles.

So does anyone have a tried and true recipe or set of techniques that they’ve used to successfully brew a Hefeweizen on a robobrew/brewzilla? I’m at a loss!

 

[day_trippr]

I only have one potential observation: crush quality always matters wrt efficiency.

Wheat requires a significantly narrower mill gap than barley to actually bust it up enough for a decent yield. If you aren't gapping for that, or if your grain supplier isn't gapping their mill tighter for the wheat, efficiency will be lower, potentially by a lot. I use a separate mill for wheat so I don't disturb my barley mill gap, with the former set for .020" while the latter is set for .032" - a pretty decent difference.

Other than crush I can't think of anything else...

Cheers!

 

[rmr9]

I was thinking crush could be a culprit since the last attempt was before I got my 2 roller mill and didn’t feel like hand cranking my corona mill.

Of the 3 batches, 2 were crushed by the shop once by corona. I could try double crushing the wheat perhaps so as not to fiddle with my mill gap. Wonder if I used too many rice hulls as well since the sparge went really fast if memory serves. I’d love to get a weizen going to complement my schwarzbier on tap but it’s daunting given my 0/3 record.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Are you using the same recipe you used in your cooler mash brew? Have you adjusted your grain bill to account for the lower efficiency in an AIO?

 

[rmr9]

Are you using the same recipe you used in your cooler mash brew? Have you adjusted your grain bill to account for the lower efficiency in an AIO?

Not scientifically, but yeah I did. In my old cooler setup I was using 11lbs of grain getting an OG of 1.055 or thereabouts. With the robobrew, I typically hit an OG of 1.050-1.054 with 12lbs of grain, so I adjusted my recipe up to 12lbs of grain but got OGs of 1.040-1.044 for the Hefeweizen

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

In your previous method did you step mash? If you did, do you still do that in the all in one system? ( I’ve recently acquired a used grainfather and I’m interested. I know the rests are with goals in mind and our modified malts don’t necessarily require it.)

 

[rmr9]

In your previous method did you step mash? If you did, do you still do that in the all in one system? ( I’ve recently acquired a used grainfather and I’m interested. I know the rests are with goals in mind and our modified malts don’t necessarily require it.)

In the cooler setup I typically did single infusion with mashout except for one time I did a double decoction which turned out to be the best hefeweizen I have yet brewed.

In the Robobrew I did single infusions at 150 for the first 2 batches and the last one I did a hochkurz step mash 145 for 30 minutes, 158 for 45 minutes followed by mashout at 170 for 10 minutes.

 

[SFC Rudy]

Not scientifically, but yeah I did. In my old cooler setup I was using 11lbs of grain getting an OG of 1.055 or thereabouts. With the robobrew, I typically hit an OG of 1.050-1.054 with 12lbs of grain, so I adjusted my recipe up to 12lbs of grain but got OGs of 1.040-1.044 for the Hefeweizen

Do you sparge?

Palmer has the math for stepping up a recipe to a no sparge recipe. I tried it and usually would have to add approx. 20% more grain to make the same numbers as a recipe that was created with a sparge. By that calculator

I use a Mash and Boil and realized that my malt pipe fits in my Anvil fermenter so I can do a batch sparge in it. Got my efficiencies back up to 75-80%.

 

[rmr9]

Do you sparge?

Palmer has the math for stepping up a recipe to a no sparge recipe. I tried it and usually would have to add approx. 20% more grain to make the same numbers as a recipe that was created with a sparge. By that calculator

I use a Mash and Boil and realized that my malt pipe fits in my Anvil fermenter so I can do a batch sparge in it. Got my efficiencies back up to 75-80%.

Yes I do sparge. Generally I mash in with 6.5 gallons and sparge with 2 gallons. I’ve thought about retooling these numbers but I have been getting the consistent 1.050 OG with this approach. I was thinking my volumes may be on the high end, I used to err towards slightly higher wort production since I was filling a 5.5 gallon pin cask instead of a 5 gallon corny originally.

 

[SFC Rudy]

I calculate to get 60% of my boil volume out of the mash and sparge with 40%.

 

[rmr9]

One issue I need to address is my vessel for heating sparge water, it can’t accommodate much more than 2 gallons unfortunately. I’ll have to see if my malt pip fits into my anvil bucket. Only problem being I would need to use said bucket for fermentation. Unless I break out my all rounder but I don’t want to mess with that unless I get this piece sorted out.

 

[SFC Rudy]

One issue I need to address is my vessel for heating sparge water, it can’t accommodate much more than 2 gallons unfortunately. I’ll have to see if my malt pip fits into my anvil bucket. Only problem being I would need to use said bucket for fermentation. Unless I break out my all rounder but I don’t want to mess with that unless I get this piece sorted out.

When I sparge in my fermenter I clean it during the boil so that is not an issue.

Heating sparge water is an issue. I bought a second M&B, mash in one and sparge in the other. But if I am using my fermenter as a sparge vessel I heat all my water then transfer my sparge water volume to a round drink cooler to keep it warm during the mash. Works well other than the M&B only holds 7 gal water and I usually need 8 or so for my brew day. I bought a cheap electric water heater from walmart to heat the extra gallon or so of sparge water.

AIO's are great, but they do have limitations

 

[kevin58]

You need to forget what you did with that old cooler rig. This is a brand new system with its own equipment profile. Start building your recipe from scratch and make refinements along the way until you get the results you want. I started with a cooler mash tun type system and then went to a propane fired 3 vessel set up... to a 3 vessel electric herms followed by three different all-in-one systems. In none of those transitions did I ever look back at the previous system as a comparison to the new.

 

[rmr9]

You need to forget what you did with that old cooler rig. This is a brand new system with its own equipment profile. Start building your recipe from scratch and make refinements along the way until you get the results you want. I started with a cooler mash tun type system and then went to a propane fired 3 vessel set up... to a 3 vessel electric herms followed by three different all-in-one systems. In none of those transitions did I ever look back at the previous system as a comparison to the new.

This makes a lot of sense, it is very different for sure. As Rudy mentioned, the AIO’s do have their limitations.

Process wise I’m not basing it on the cooler days. Mainly focusing on the difference in quality in end product between the two.

 

[doug293cz]

I calculate to get 60% of my boil volume out of the mash and sparge with 40%.

Batch sparge lauter efficiency is maximized when the initial runnings and sparge runnings volumes are equal. Required strike and sparge volumes can be predicted accurately using a spreadsheet like this. Or, you can just use the simple rule of thumb of 60% of total brewing water for strike, and 40% for sparge. This accounts for grain absorption (which only applies to initial runnings), and gets you close enough to 50/50 run-off volumes, for a wide range of target OGs, that you won't be able to accurately measure the efficiency difference from a precisely 50/50 run-off.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

One issue I need to address is my vessel for heating sparge water, it can’t accommodate much more than 2 gallons unfortunately. I’ll have to see if my malt pip fits into my anvil bucket. Only problem being I would need to use said bucket for fermentation. Unless I break out my all rounder but I don’t want to mess with that unless I get this piece sorted out.

When I sparge in my fermenter I clean it during the boil so that is not an issue.

Heating sparge water is an issue. I bought a second M&B, mash in one and sparge in the other. But if I am using my fermenter as a sparge vessel I heat all my water then transfer my sparge water volume to a round drink cooler to keep it warm during the mash. Works well other than the M&B only holds 7 gal water and I usually need 8 or so for my brew day. I bought a cheap electric water heater from walmart to heat the extra gallon or so of sparge water.

AIO's are great, but they do have limitations

You don't have to heat sparge water (unless your conversion is incomplete at the end of your mash, AND you didn't do a mash-out.) Cool sparge water will increase your time required to heat to boil, but that's pretty much the only drawback.

Brew on

 

[rmr9]

You don't have to heat sparge water (unless your conversion is incomplete at the end of your mash, AND you didn't do a mash-out.) Cool sparge water will increase your time required to heat to boil, but that's pretty much the only drawback.

Brew on

That’s a good point, something to definitely consider. Heating to boil already takes a heck of a long time, that’s the only drawback to the 110V system I have. Maybe someday I’ll be able to bump up to 220V but that’s a ways away

 

[Rfox2014]

Any luck on your hefeweizen endeavor?

 

[rmr9]

I haven’t taken any steps forward with it, I might try to implement some changes and take another crack at it next month. It’s so hot out that I have a hard time chilling my wort in the summer

 

[Rfox2014]

I haven’t taken any steps forward with it, I might try to implement some changes and take another crack at it next month. It’s so hot out that I have a hard time chilling my wort in the summer

It’s a scorcher here too, I understand you. I’m 0/3 on hefeweizen success myself… I haven’t tried since I switched from BIAB propane to AIO electric. Now that I can step mash I want to give it another run. I was using lallemand yeast so maybe there was a problem there. Turned out like band-aids / phenolic / plasticky… and no history of infections on my other brews. Thought I’d pop in to see if you’d made a good one..

 

[rmr9]

Fingers crossed that this heat wave breaks even a bit. Should’ve timed it better - a nice hefeweizen would be perfect right about now

 

[hungupdown]

Not scientifically, but yeah I did. In my old cooler setup I was using 11lbs of grain getting an OG of 1.055 or thereabouts. With the robobrew, I typically hit an OG of 1.050-1.054 with 12lbs of grain, so I adjusted my recipe up to 12lbs of grain but got OGs of 1.040-1.044 for the Hefeweizen

What percentage wheat are you using?

In BZ g4 35L (230V), I often do a Heffweizen (Schneider Weiss clone), with no problems now.
Using 5.55kg (12.2 lb) malts, including 53% wheat malt.
I add Oat hulls, @15% of wheat weight.

A problem with the Brewzilla is it's relatively tall, narrow, profile. Which means it's more likely to end up with a compacted grain bed (than a wide, shallow profile). Leading to slow recirculation, or a stuck mash.
I had a badly stuck mash, on a couple of early BZ brews. Before changing my method (based on old advice from Palmer).

First dry mix grains (and hulls).
Then mash in with minimal stirring. Palmers advice: "just enough to break up any dough balls, without knocking off trapped air. The increased grain buoyancy, gives a more open grain bed.

NEVER stir the grain bed again!
The grain bed should be the filter that traps all small/flour particles. Wheat , being huskless, has higher % of flour.
Stirrirg, simply releases all the small particles. Which can then settle out, then burn, on the base.

Leave 15minutes, for the grain to hydrate (and expand), and the grain bed to 'lock in' before starting recirculation.
Then recirculate slowly, increasing to the max flow, that doesn't increase wort level any more than 1/2inch. Any more, and the extra weight supported by the grain can then cause compaction.

Any extra time, needed with slow recirculation, is still much quicker than sorting out a stuck mash.

Doing 23L batch of Schneider Weiss clone again tomorrow.
3.1kg wheat malt
1.1kg Vienna malt
1kg Pils malt
350g Caramunich malt.
4kg Oat hulls

I normally use Mangrove Jacks M20 yeast, but this time trying WHC Banana Split, which gives slightly higher attenuation.
I occasionally thought the MJ yeast brew, was slightly sweet.

 

[Pan_Kotsky]

Interestingly, the weissbier style was the first one I managed to go smoothly on this system. I don't use husks, but do grain conditioning with 2% water. Can't vouch on efficiencies though. Never check gravities since I broke my hydrometer 8 years ago. Subjectively my hefe weizen is consistently the same

 

[rmr9]

I’ll take another stab at it this spring I think, once I finish my string of lagers. I listened to the latest brew strong on decoction mashing and now I’m hankering to give it another try with the hefeweizen. Been researching best practices for decoction while using a AIO and I think I could pull it off with minimal effort.

 

[Barão]

What percentage wheat are you using?

In BZ g4 35L (230V), I often do a Heffweizen (Schneider Weiss clone), with no problems now.
Using 5.55kg (12.2 lb) malts, including 53% wheat malt.
I add Oat hulls, @15% of wheat weight.

A problem with the Brewzilla is it's relatively tall, narrow, profile. Which means it's more likely to end up with a compacted grain bed (than a wide, shallow profile). Leading to slow recirculation, or a stuck mash.
I had a badly stuck mash, on a couple of early BZ brews. Before changing my method (based on old advice from Palmer).

First dry mix grains (and hulls).
Then mash in with minimal stirring. Palmers advice: "just enough to break up any dough balls, without knocking off trapped air. The increased grain buoyancy, gives a more open grain bed.

NEVER stir the grain bed again!
The grain bed should be the filter that traps all small/flour particles. Wheat , being huskless, has higher % of flour.
Stirrirg, simply releases all the small particles. Which can then settle out, then burn, on the base.

Leave 15minutes, for the grain to hydrate (and expand), and the grain bed to 'lock in' before starting recirculation.
Then recirculate slowly, increasing to the max flow, that doesn't increase wort level any more than 1/2inch. Any more, and the extra weight supported by the grain can then cause compaction.

Any extra time, needed with slow recirculation, is still much quicker than sorting out a stuck mash.

Doing 23L batch of Schneider Weiss clone again tomorrow.
3.1kg wheat malt
1.1kg Vienna malt
1kg Pils malt
350g Caramunich malt.
4kg Oat hulls

I normally use Mangrove Jacks M20 yeast, but this time trying WHC Banana Split, which gives slightly higher attenuation.
I occasionally thought the MJ yeast brew, was slightly sweet.

During the 15 minutes of rest, do you keep the machine on?
I have problems with the pump and tap clogging.
Would using this amount of peel solve the problem?

 

[hungupdown]

Sorry, the oat hulls amount should have been 400g (not 4kg). I did copy&paste from recipe pdf, and don't understand where 4kg came from.
I go with oat hulls at 12 to 15% of wheat malt, by weight.

Other big point (I'd forgotton), is don't use the malt pipe top plate, while mashing. The extra weight gives increased likelihood of a compacted bed.
When malt is covered by a layer of wort, that alone, distributes flow across the grain bed (so a top plate is not needed).

Some people throw the top plate away, but I find it usefull when sparging.

During the 15 minute rest, I have the BZ doing 'outer recirculation' to maintain mash temperature, as I'm in the Scottish Highlands. But in hot climates, that's maybe not an issue.
Outer recirculation: stick the recirc hose down one of the malt pipe lift holes, and run it at full flow. This helps maintain temperature, as malt pipe will then have warm wort both surrounding, and underneath it.
Also it helps keep fine particles and flour in circulation, rather than settling out on the heater base, where they can burn later. These, hopefully, will then get trapped in the grain bed filter, when normal recirculation commences.

I now have a 2nd recirculation hose, permanently connected to the drain tap (this will only work, with the original pumped drain tap configuration).
Balance of flow between the hoses, is controlled by the recirculation valve, and drain tap positions.
I leave the original hose doing 'outer recirc' with valve full open, throughout. And use drain valve, to control 2nd hose recirc through malt pipe, starting at 15 to 20 minutes.
Positioning 2nd hose, about half an inch above initial wort level, gives an indicator of allowable wort level rise. Adjust for best flow, without exceeding this rise.

My 2nd hose, has the same I.D. as first, but a slightly larger O.D. So it won't quite fit down the lift holes.
But it's maximum flow rate is around 60% more than through the original pipe. I guess this must be down to reduced I.D. somewhere in other fittings used.
With the greater flow, and ability to reach higher, I always use the new hose, for pumping out.


This Sunday's Schneider Weiss, with slightly lower % wheat than usual, and a slightly higher % oat hulls (just to use up pre-bagged amounts). Had the best recirc rate for a wheat beer (maybe 50% of max flow), that I've had so far:

3 kg (51.3%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
1.1 kg (18.8%) — Simpsons Vienna Malt — Grain — 7.5 EBC
900 g (15.4%) — TMM Pilsner/Lager Malt — Grain — 3 EBC
350 g (6%) — Bindewald Caramunich Malt 150 — Grain — 150 EBC

Other (400 g)​

400 g (8.6%) — Oat Hulls — Adjunct — 0 EBC

Hops (40 g)​

30 g (13 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 60 min
10 g (2 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 15 min

Miscs​

6 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
5 ml — Lactic Acid 80% — Mash

Yeast​

1 pkg — WHC Lab Banana Split 80%

Fermentation​

Primary — 19 °C — 3 days
Primary — 24 °C — 5 days

 

[Barão]

Sorry, the oat hulls amount should have been 400g (not 4kg). I did copy&paste from recipe pdf, and don't understand where 4kg came from.
I go with oat hulls at 12 to 15% of wheat malt, by weight.

Other big point (I'd forgotton), is don't use the malt pipe top plate, while mashing. The extra weight gives increased likelihood of a compacted bed.
When malt is covered by a layer of wort, that alone, distributes flow across the grain bed (so a top plate is not needed).

Some people throw the top plate away, but I find it usefull when sparging.

During the 15 minute rest, I have the BZ doing 'outer recirculation' to maintain mash temperature, as I'm in the Scottish Highlands. But in hot climates, that's maybe not an issue.
Outer recirculation: stick the recirc hose down one of the malt pipe lift holes, and run it at full flow. This helps maintain temperature, as malt pipe will then have warm wort both surrounding, and underneath it.
Also it helps keep fine particles and flour in circulation, rather than settling out on the heater base, where they can burn later. These, hopefully, will then get trapped in the grain bed filter, when normal recirculation commences.

I now have a 2nd recirculation hose, permanently connected to the drain tap (this will only work, with the original pumped drain tap configuration).
Balance of flow between the hoses, is controlled by the recirculation valve, and drain tap positions.
I leave the original hose doing 'outer recirc' with valve full open, throughout. And use drain valve, to control 2nd hose recirc through malt pipe, starting at 15 to 20 minutes.
Positioning 2nd hose, about half an inch above initial wort level, gives an indicator of allowable wort level rise. Adjust for best flow, without exceeding this rise.

My 2nd hose, has the same I.D. as first, but a slightly larger O.D. So it won't quite fit down the lift holes.
But it's maximum flow rate is around 60% more than through the original pipe. I guess this must be down to reduced I.D. somewhere in other fittings used.
With the greater flow, and ability to reach higher, I always use the new hose, for pumping out.


This Sunday's Schneider Weiss, with slightly lower % wheat than usual, and a slightly higher % oat hulls (just to use up pre-bagged amounts). Had the best recirc rate for a wheat beer (maybe 50% of max flow), that I've had so far:

3 kg (51.3%) — Crisp Wheat Malt — Grain — 4.1 EBC
1.1 kg (18.8%) — Simpsons Vienna Malt — Grain — 7.5 EBC
900 g (15.4%) — TMM Pilsner/Lager Malt — Grain — 3 EBC
350 g (6%) — Bindewald Caramunich Malt 150 — Grain — 150 EBC

Other (400 g)​

400 g (8.6%) — Oat Hulls — Adjunct — 0 EBC

Hops (40 g)​

30 g (13 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 60 min
10 g (2 IBU) — Hallertauer Mittelfrueh 4% — Boil — 15 min

Miscs​

6 g — Calcium Chloride (CaCl2) — Mash
5 ml — Lactic Acid 80% — Mash

Yeast​

1 pkg — WHC Lab Banana Split 80%

Fermentation​

Primary — 19 °C — 3 days
Primary — 24 °C — 5 days

Thanks for the explanation...you live in the place I would most like to visit in the world......Highlands ....but I can't...physical and medical problems