Hefe Yeast Options-Calling All Hefe Specialists!

[Horseflesh]

So, if ferulic acid is important... Maybe you can just add some to the wort.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0161K9QMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have no idea if the material in the link above is the right form of the compound, or how much you need.

I like doing things traditionally, but I also like breaking with tradition if it's interesting!

 

[dmtaylor]

So, if ferulic acid is important... Maybe you can just add some to the wort.

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0161K9QMA/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I have no idea if the material in the link above is the right form of the compound, or how much you need.

I like doing things traditionally, but I also like breaking with tradition if it's interesting!

I'm very skeptical. I wonder if ferulic acid actually does anything at all. Maybe it does, maybe it doesn't.

This reminds me of the guy who made a Berliner weisse by adding a lot of powdered lactic acid to his beer. Was it sour? Sure. Did it taste like a true weisse from Berlin? Hell no.

 

[Horseflesh]

We already feed yeast vitamins and other nutrients. If ferulic acid is consumed by yeast, and that is what gets them to produce the clove notes, in principle adding a supplement should work just as well.

The reality may be more complicated, of course. Maybe a ferulic acid rest produces 100 similar compounds, not just one. Maybe it's all just BS. It would be an interesting experiment, though.

 

[Brewmasher]

It's not readily available, but the White Labs WLP611 New Nordic Yeast from their Yeast Vault series makes a fantastic Hefe!
You'll have to be patient waiting for it though.

I'm waiting patiently for my Torulaspora delbrueckii, which is the wild yeast used in the Nordic yeast blend. Been stuck at 110 orders before shipping for a while now.

 

[newkirk]

...
Now that being said a member of my local brew club recently went pro, his first commercial beer is his hefe. He told me that he is doing a 5 step mash on that thing. He is doing an acid, protein, beta, alpha rest and a mash out. He's just doing a simple pilsner / wheat grist and hallertau to 12 IBU's. He's getting a ton of clove and banana out of that beer using 3068. He is using commercial equipment, but he says he ferments at 66F and its packaged after 3 days, crazy stuff.

I've been using 3068 for a while now for Dunkelweizens and Roggenbiers. I build a 1.5 liter starter, then cold-crash and archive most of it to feed the next starter. I've been slowly working toward more significant underpitching.

First couple were extract, since then BIAB. I don't even want to contemplate a 5-step mash - for me that would thoroughly violate the first R. (Relax, RDWHAHB)

Most recently, last saturday (61 hours ago) I pitched 60%-70% the recommended yeast into a Roggen/Dunkel mashup. (1/3 barley, 1/3 wheat, 1/3 rye) O.G. 1.052, just checked the gravity at the 60 hour mark (pitched 2am saturday night/sunday morning) and it's down to 1.012. Fermenter in 66-68F ambient (warmer than I wanted but it's mid-90s weather here and a houseguest complained about my mid-60s indoor temps) it free-rose to 6 degrees over ambient by hour 12 [accompanied by a huge burst of brimstone], down to 1 degree over ambient by hour 36.

For logistical reasons I won't be bottling until this Saturday, but I can absolutely see where it could be bottled on the third day. (I would definitely go light on bottling sugars though, maybe 'target' 2.3-2.5 atm and expect it would end higher) Crazy stuff indeed.

j

 

[Morrey]

I started this post looking for ways to improve my Hefe brewing. This is likely among my favorite styles and I look to continually improve upon my skills. Two things I feel are critical are temp control and yeast control. My next Hefe I am going to try a direct pitch (no starter) of WY3068 and a temp of 66F. I'll see what this plan yields me.

BUT, please don't take this as bragging since I am a rather non-assuming guy. I went to a local beer store where they let you select individual beers to make your own unique six pack. I selected all Hefe's inc one made by UFO here in the US, with the balance made up of well known imported brands. My wife and I did a blind taste test including our "OWN" Hefe which I want to improve upon. Well darn, OUR Hefe won hands down the test. I'm sure we are used to our own flavor profiles including freshness, but heck, I am chasing a better beer when I got the better beer already. Sorry to brag, just saying I should be more satisfied and enjoy instead of always trying to "one up" my own self. Always striving for perfection.

 

[dmtaylor]

I went to a local beer store where they let you select individual beers to make your own unique six pack. I selected all Hefe's inc one made by UFO here in the US, with the balance made up of well known imported brands. My wife and I did a blind taste test including our "OWN" Hefe which I want to improve upon. Well darn, OUR Hefe won hands down the test. I'm sure we are used to our own flavor profiles including freshness, but heck, I am chasing a better beer when I got the better beer already. Sorry to brag, just saying I should be more satisfied and enjoy instead of always trying to "one up" my own self. Always striving for perfection.

This does not surprise me at all. Freshness means a lot, especially when it comes to hefeweizen. The lovely clove and banana flavors fade with age very quickly in a matter of weeks. Several months later and these flavors are pretty much gone.

 

[Horseflesh]

I liked my last hefe (which was EdWort's recipe) better than my favorite store-bought versions also. When I did a side by side tasting I was surprised by how different they really were.

Ayinger/Weihenstephaner hefe are very similar and both have a malty finish. They're also a bit darker than I always remember.

I don't know if it's EdWort's recipe or my brewing, but I found that malty aftertaste totally absent in my brew, and the color was also lighter. Overall, it was crisper, I guess I would say. Turns out I like my hefes better that way, whether it is authentic or not.

In other respects like banana presence, all 3 beers shared the important traits of the style.

 

[Morrey]

This does not surprise me at all. Freshness means a lot, especially when it comes to hefeweizen. The lovely clove and banana flavors fade with age very quickly in a matter of weeks. Several months later and these flavors are pretty much gone.

I agree, Dave. While freshness is not desirable in all beers, Hefe's seem to shine when young. Now that you said this, all the imported Hefe's seemed kind of dull in comparison while ours was fresh and vibrant.

I liked my last hefe (which was EdWort's recipe) better than my favorite store-bought versions also. When I did a side by side tasting I was surprised by how different they really were.

Ayinger/Weihenstephaner hefe are very similar and both have a malty finish. They're also a bit darker than I always remember.

I don't know if it's EdWort's recipe or my brewing, but I found that malty aftertaste totally absent in my brew, and the color was also lighter. Overall, it was crisper, I guess I would say. Turns out I like my hefes better that way, whether it is authentic or not.

In other respects like banana presence, all 3 beers shared the important traits of the style.

Another PLUS for the homebrewing craft. A very BIG PLUS I'll add!!

 

[Morrey]

One last opinion requested......I want to try stressing my Hefe yeast to see what effect this will have on my beer. If I do an 11G batch next, will pitching one pack of WY3068 (no starter) be something that could possibly work? Many say to treat the yeast badly and it will make a better beer. One pack, no starter?

 

[dmtaylor]

One last opinion requested......I want to try stressing my Hefe yeast to see what effect this will have on my beer. If I do an 11G batch next, will pitching one pack of WY3068 (no starter) be something that could possibly work? Many say to treat the yeast badly and it will make a better beer. One pack, no starter?

That might be really good. That would be pretty severe underpitching. As long as the yeast is reasonably fresh and the pack swells up within 24 hours, I'd say go for it.

 

[thereverendmaynard]

I think that sounds about right re pitch rate. The other thing i was thinking about was pitch a normal amount and forgo or really reduce o2. Perhaps both.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

The biggest secret to great hefeweizen is to treat the yeast like ****.

Perfect. Lol. This needs to be a signature or something.

 

[Morrey]

Perfect. Lol. This needs to be a signature or something.

Cool. "Treat your wife like an angel and your hefe yeast like hell" LOL

 

[Lefou]

Using WLP351, I kept the temps down around 61F. Our house thermostat is kept around 58F during the winter and this brought the clove out just like I wanted.

 

[Lefou]

I'm no hefe specialist, but the next time I make one, I am going to try a ferulic acid rest.

http://allaboutbeer.com/quirks-of-brewing-ferulic-acid-rest/

Did this. It works - I think. LOL
I dropped my grain in at a strike temp of about 113-122F and held it there, then stepped the temperature up. Definite clove aroma and taste in my batch this past spring. I recognize the article because it is also in this book "The Beer Bible". Great book, I snatched it from the local library and read it constantly for about three weeks.. Drexler, Schneider und Sohn's master brewer, is in the book. If there's anything I could manage to get right, it would be a good Schneiderweisse clone.

 

[Jiffster]

I'm driven to succeed in brewing my favorite style of Hefe as well. I'm really aiming for those sweeter banana notes. The Hefe I find to be my favorite (from a local brewery) describes itself as "balanced banana and Clive notes". I really notice the banana and I find it very refreshing.

Honestly, I'm not sure what "clove" tastes/smells like.

 

[Brewmasher]

I'm not sure what "clove" tastes/smells like

Very pungent, sweet spice. A bit like licorice in pungency, but a flavor all its own. It's what gives pumpkin pie spice its kick. Clove oil is used as an antiseptic, anti inflammatory and for topical pain relief. It is also purported to being an aphrodisiac for men. No spice cabinet is complete without clove.

 

[ncbrewer]

Thanks Brewmasher. I never knew what the clove taste was, either.

 

[Morrey]

After many attempts at what I'll call my "preference" in Hefe's, I finally got the one I was looking for! And please let me add your many comments and suggestions I got on this thread enabled this beer to happen. Thank you all!

I made an 11G batch with a typical 65/35 German wheat/two row ratio with a few ounces of Melanoidin added to deepen the SRM ever so slightly. I used two smack packs of WY 3068 straight from the swollen pouch, no starter. (I am going to attribute my success to this yeast, and this direct pitch method)

Pitched at 65F and let free ride to 68F for a two week visit to the fermentation chamber. I bumped it to 69F on the last day but thats no biggie. When I opened the 60L Speidel lid, gorgeous banana and subtle clove was noted. I took a reading and it went from 1.050 to 1.010 which is just awesome. A great 5% beer with a touch of residual sweetness for a finish. Even green as grass and totally non-carbed, it is awesome!

With 14 or so days in the keg at 15psi and 32F, I am going to be one happy soul with this Hefe! WOW!! Cool bananas, baby!:rockin:

 

[bruhaha]

I remember way on back the LHBS owner told me that a Hefe (extract) was probably the easiest beer to try for starters. Not knowing any different I believed him.

Unfortunately, and by many attempts with mediocre results, I learned that Hefe's (AG) were among the trickiest to perfect. I had a conversation with an award winning retail craft brewer who stated he shied away from commercial production of Hefe's due to the difficulties.

So my friend, congrats on your well deserved success! Cheers Bro!!

 

[WhoDatDad78]

After many attempts at what I'll call my "preference" in Hefe's, I finally got the one I was looking for! And please let me add your many comments and suggestions I got on this thread enabled this beer to happen. Thank you all!

I made an 11G batch with a typical 65/35 German wheat/two row ratio with a few ounces of Melanoidin added to deepen the SRM ever so slightly. I used two smack packs of WY 3068 straight from the swollen pouch, no starter. (I am going to attribute my success to this yeast, and this direct pitch method)

Pitched at 65F and let free ride to 68F for a two week visit to the fermentation chamber. I bumped it to 69F on the last day but thats no biggie. When I opened the 60L Speidel lid, gorgeous banana and subtle clove was noted. I took a reading and it went from 1.050 to 1.010 which is just awesome. A great 5% beer with a touch of residual sweetness for a finish. Even green as grass and totally non-carbed, it is awesome!

With 14 or so days in the keg at 15psi and 32F, I am going to be one happy soul with this Hefe! WOW!! Cool bananas, baby!:rockin:

What's "a few ounces" of melanoidin?

 

[dmtaylor]

What's "a few ounces" of melanoidin?

If using melanoidin malt, I'd recommend 3-4% of the grist. For 5 gallons, this works out to be about 5-6 oz.

 

[Morrey]

If using melanoidin malt, I'd recommend 3-4% of the grist. For 5 gallons, this works out to be about 5-6 oz.

Thanks, Dave. I am pretty cautious with the Melanodonin malt as a little goes along way. If my memory serves me correctly, I used 8 oz in an 11G batch which is inline with your thinking. It gave the beer a hint of richness and color. Just the touch I was looking for!


WhoDatDad78: If you have used Beer Smith, I plugged in the Melanoidin malt bill to make sure I stayed within style and color guidelines. With nothing but pale and wheat malts, my previous Hefe's were looking sort of anemic. The Melanoidin bumps the SRM ever so slightly to give it a beautiful look.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

If using melanoidin malt, I'd recommend 3-4% of the grist. For 5 gallons, this works out to be about 5-6 oz.

thanks Dave, I love a Hefe with a hint of clove and a pretty good dose of banana, so I will be following this method pretty soon.

 

[MVKTR2]

FYI I'm a YouTube vid titled microbes after dark the pope of foam Charlie Bamforth gives his ideal temperature for a ferulic acid test. Iirc he suggests 109 but dbl check.

 

[thereverendmaynard]

I just brewed up my hefe - I use a little aeromatic for color. I pitched 3 smack packs of 3068 that was from early aug - so per my pitch calc under 100bb cells so a low pitch rate. Did 1 min at 1l/m o2. started fermentation @ 67 and ramped to 69 over 48 hrs. Big Krausen and very active fermentation after 24 hrs. I did an acid rest at 110 for 20, then mash at 152 for 60. Will post how it came out.... I also skipped the whirlfloc and just did a 10 min whirlpool to separate trub/kettle hops. Was a bit low on PH target - hit 5.2 so will back down the acid a bit on the next brew. I didnt do it on this one - but i spoke with a hefe commercial brewer and he was saying how they will do an acid addition (Citric) in the last few minutes of the boil. I think the idea here is a PH in the upper 4s will prevent clearing and provide a bit of tartness. Anyone else try this?

Per brewersfriend pitch rate calc...
Cells Available:
60 billion cells
Pitch Rate As-Is:
0.10M cells / mL / °P

Water