hefe weizen temps

[enricocoron]

Want to try a Weizen, it's summer here and it's right for the wheat, but is my brewing set up?

WL300 yeast says optimum fermentation at 68-72 degrees, I'm pretty sure I can keep it at 72 or below but i've seen threads where people did their Weizens at more like 62-65 like a steam style (CA common)....will I be okay to ferment at 70 ish in my swamp cooler? Day time highs are hitting 77-78 and lows at 68 right now, a few ice cubes in the morning and a towel are keeping tub around 71-72 right now in the garage (colder on the cement slab)...

I was going to go 55% Wheat, 35% two row, 5% crystal 20, 5% dextrin malt and hop with Hallertu, then Tettnager to about 15 IBUs for a german style weizen....

As for the water should I go fairly pure, I can get RO water if need be and make it up from that if anyone has any suggestions on water formulation using Gypsum and Epsom and Baking Soda?

 

[ArcaneXor]

I start mine at 63 degrees - doesn't have anything to do with steam beer (that's a lager yeast fermented at ale temperature), but with the flavor profile the yeast produces at those temperatures. I also do a ferulic acid rest for my weizens.

 

[emetcalf]

If you ferment at 70 you will get more banana flavor than a lower temperature. It's not necessarily a bad thing, just a little bit different overall flavor. I fermented my hefeweizen between 69-72 and it turned out amazing.

 

[DD2000GT]

I prefer my beer with banana esters, so I ferment them around 75 degrees.

 

[JonK331]

I find that WLP 300 makes the best beer in the lower temp range. I keep mine right at 62F. If you have to go that warm, you might try an American Hefe with Cal Ale yeast or a blend of CAl Ale and hefe. At the higher temps, I find that there is just too much banana and clove and it is harder to taste the malt.

 

[Tinga]

I like the banana so its around 75 for me as well

 

[emjay]

It's often said that higher temps = more banana, less clove, but it really isn't anywhere near so simple. I wish it were though, as IMO, there's no such thing as "too much banana! Or bubblegum, for that matter.

Care to say what you're looking for in a hefe? Perhaps your favorite commercial example, and what makes it your favorite? There really isn't a "right" temperature - it just has to do with how you're looking to influence the yeast - and so it's impossible to give you a good answer without a bit of that info.

FWIW, Jamil Z is a staunch advocate of fermenting weizen at 62°. He supposedly had previously tinkered with temps for a very long time until a friend told him that 62° works best, and he apparently had never even considered fermenting so cool. So if Jamil recommends it so strongly, it's always worth trying in my book. And if you think about it, if he had simply been looking to mute the yeast character, a cooler temp would have been the first thing to occur to him, so it very likely still has a lot of that great Bavarian hefe character. In fact, he seems to imply he was looking for a decent amount of banana, and was thrown off by the seemingly common wisdom that higher fermentation temperatures produced more banana and less clove, and lower ferm temps resulted in all clove, no banana.

IMO, if you're trying to get rid of those interesting yeast flavors in favor of letting the malt shine (as someone suggested), then you might as well just brew an American wheat.

 

[Boodlemania]

My bavarian hefe with WLP300 (EdWort's recipe) improved drastically once I started using a fermetation chamber held at 64-65F.

 

[enricocoron]

A lot to take in to be sure.....

1) My favourite commercial examples are Erdinger and Paulaner Weizens....I also enjoy Franziskaner as well. I really like the Bananna and Clove balance with what seems to be a hint of lemony zest hop finish in the Erdinger.

2) I have no temp control system and am unlikely to add one in the near future. If I want to enjoy a hand crafted Weizen this summer I'm going to have to cool it old school, with ice, wind, and water. Temps are forecasted to drop Thursday on....may set up a starter for Thursday/Friday and try to start ferm off at 68 or less and keep it there....but it sounds like some people that really like bananna esters brew it at the white labs recommended temps, and some people prefer the flavor profile at the lower temps

3) I realize that Steam beer is brewed with a bottom fermenting yeast, I was only referring to the style as a rough temp profile comparison...because I would not brew a steam style brew with the temps I am dealing with right now

 

[enricocoron]

How is this recipe looking?

5 lbs. German Wheat malt
4 lbs. German Pilsener two row
.5 lb. crystal 20
.25 lb. cara pils

.5 oz Hallertu at 60 minutes (60 min. boil)
.5 oz Tettnang at 15
.5 oz Tettnang at 5

Single decoction mash with protein rest at 125 for 30 minutes, 155 for 60, then 170 for 10 to mash out....

Pitch WL300 at 68 degrees or less and try to keep it there 10 days and cold crash it.

Try to replicate Munich water

 

[Tinga]

crystal and carapils aren't needed. neither is the protein rest. I would just do half pilsner and half wheat maybe munich or oats but not necessary. hops look fine. might not need the addition at 5 min though. single infusion at 155 for 60 then your chosen sparge method.

 

[badlee]

Try going outside the box and think"all wheat" weizenbier. You may need to brew in a bag,but a break from the norm on both will be well worth it.

 

[enricocoron]

I thought I'd add a touch of crystal for a touch of color....I guess the head retention is not needed from dextrin malts because of the wheat? I saw a decoction mash was popular for the Weizens, but if it's not necessary then I won't.

 

[emjay]

I thought I'd add a touch of crystal for a touch of color....I guess the head retention is not needed from dextrin malts because of the wheat? I saw a decoction mash was popular for the Weizens, but if it's not necessary then I won't.

Crystal is really the worst possible choice if you just want some color. And yeah, the wheat will provide all the head retention you need.

 

[944play]

Try to replicate Munich water

Don't bother. The softer the water the better, then just add some calcium chloride to bring down the mash pH and to provide the yeast some calcium.

EdWort's recipe is a great starting point. Brew that first, then see what it needs.

 

[Mysticmead]

Try going outside the box and think"all wheat" weizenbier. You may need to brew in a bag,but a break from the norm on both will be well worth it.

I did an all wheat Hefe.. came out GREAT!. I also found that on a real hot day, mixing it 50/50 with lemonade makes a very refreshing drink (called a Russ) and I don't get wasted while cutting the grass.

There's another option for you to brew with the warmer temps. it's called a Dampfbier. Which is German for steam beer. Unlike a typical steam beer this is a 100% barley beer but it's low hopped and fermented with hefeweizen yeast at temps around or above 70. I currently have a Dampfbier waiting to go into a keg..

 

[Soma]

Esters are the best thing in a Hefe, so fermenting warm is the way I do it. However don't go too warm, or it becomes kind of hot and weird.

 

[azscoob]

I have a batch of Hefe that I fermented with Wyeast 3068 at 65°, I think I need to wash that cake and follow it up with some Dampfbier, then finish with a nice Roggenbier.

Been over a year since I brewed a Roggen, I may as well get some easy milage from that 3068 cake with a few batches.

 

[JonK331]

How is this recipe looking?

5 lbs. German Wheat malt
4 lbs. German Pilsener two row
.5 lb. crystal 20
.25 lb. cara pils

.5 oz Hallertu at 60 minutes (60 min. boil)
.5 oz Tettnang at 15
.5 oz Tettnang at 5

Single decoction mash with protein rest at 125 for 30 minutes, 155 for 60, then 170 for 10 to mash out....

Pitch WL300 at 68 degrees or less and try to keep it there 10 days and cold crash it.

Try to replicate Munich water

Yeah the traditional hefes don't contain any crystal. They were also traditionally decocted so there should be a good amount of melanoidin which can be achieved by adding a pound or so of Munich. So if I were you I'd omit the crystal malts and add .75 to 1 lb of Munich. Hops look fine.

 

[enricocoron]

That's pretty funny, I was about to write I was going to scrap the crystal and dextrin and put a pound of munich in...I didn't realize munich = melanoidin.

Tempted to add a little orange peel to the mix but should probably just leave it alone the first time...starter is kickin 24 hours, probably go to the local HBS to see if they've got all my grains and Tettnanger...if not, the bigger store tomorrow afternoon.

I usually do get 'glacier water' from the RO/DI filtration station in front of the store...it can't be 100% efficient but it comes out pretty soft...my wife uses is for her planted aquarium and all her fish need pH 7 or very close and they are thriving, plants too...I just thought for the true Bavarian Hefe....but then I considered, if you add a salt, you are adding both components and it's really not possible to get it exactly right...hell some algae blooming in the river could affect flavor and you can't replicate that.

 

[JonK331]

Yup Munich, Vienna, and Melanoidin (obviously) malts all contain melanoidins and can be used to mimic the flavors achieved with decoction. And yeah you can always add a little orange zest or a slice to your pints if you want later. I'd keep the first one clean. Good luck and let us know how it turns out!!!!

 

[enricocoron]

Okay, so the OG came out at 1.047 or close to it, and that's right in the middle of the style guidelines....had kept it at 68 on the dot or close to since Friday night, but yesterday i went fishing and left real early so i didn't swap the ice bottles out and when I got home it was 72....added bottles and it's back down to 68 this morning so not really a big deal, it's fermenting well.

In the end I did just over 5lbs wheat malt, 4lbs pilsen, 1lb munich with .5 oz Hallertu at 60 min, .5 Tettnang at 15, 4 grams of corriander at 10, .5 tettnang at 5....

Will keep updated

 

[TripHops]

Hi enricocoron, that grain bill sounds similar to the one I use for my Paulaner clone:

5.75lb German Wheat
4lb German Pils
8oz Munich 9L
2oz Caramunich
.5oz Carafa II

.6oz Hallertauer - 60min, .4oz Hellertauer 20min
no corriander (I use corriander in my Witts but not in the Paulaner)

I ferment at 68deg all the way.

Good luck with your batch...

Trip

 

[enricocoron]

I was tempted to go a little higher on the wheat/pilsen ratio but for my first weizen i didn't want to stick...i used maybe .75 lb of rice hulls, which I pre soaked but forgot to account for their cooler temp...so I did a two stage mash....45 minutes at 147 or so, then 30 minutes at 158.

I added the Corriander cause I had it left from a Belgian recipe and I liked it....ever try honey in the weizen?

 

[PseudoChef]

FWIW, Jamil Z is a staunch advocate of fermenting weizen at 62°. He supposedly had previously tinkered with temps for a very long time until a friend told him that 62° works best, and he apparently had never even considered fermenting so cool. So if Jamil recommends it so strongly, it's always worth trying in my book. And if you think about it, if he had simply been looking to mute the yeast character, a cooler temp would have been the first thing to occur to him, so it very likely still has a lot of that great Bavarian hefe character. In fact, he seems to imply he was looking for a decent amount of banana, and was thrown off by the seemingly common wisdom that higher fermentation temperatures produced more banana and less clove, and lower ferm temps resulted in all clove, no banana.

This is extremely correct. There was a Hefe seminar at this year's NHC led by that friend, Harold Gulbranson. He brewed a bunch of Hefes with some variables and had them blind tasted. The winner? Single decocted, fermented at 62 degrees F.

Those who say they "love banana, ferment at 75" must love other off-flavors as well. I can also pretty much guess they've never brewed the same beer, fermented at different temperatures, and tasted them side-by-side.

 

[enricocoron]

I would not argue with those who have the means to control a single variable all the way through. But I did not have the means to ferment at 62 right now. But the lower end of what WL recommended seemed prudent in light of what I read on this and other threads.

 

[cyclonite]

I did an all wheat Hefe.. came out GREAT!. I also found that on a real hot day, mixing it 50/50 with lemonade makes a very refreshing drink (called a Russ) and I don't get wasted while cutting the grass...

YUM, I'm definitely going to have to try that! Thanks Mysticmead - I never would have tried that had you not mentioned it!!!

 

[enricocoron]

First tasting.....pretty smooth, definitely a little green and undercarbed but noticeable clove/bannana, can really taste that hint of spice from the corriander, and a lemon zest style of sour that is common in the style. I feel the body is a little light though, so will increase the wheat%, up the OG to 1.055 or so, and include some dextrin malt so it finishes a little higher as well. May or may not ferment at 62 this time around, lets see.

 

[nefarious_1_]

This is extremely correct. There was a Hefe seminar at this year's NHC led by that friend, Harold Gulbranson. He brewed a bunch of Hefes with some variables and had them blind tasted. The winner? Single decocted, fermented at 62 degrees F.

Those who say they "love banana, ferment at 75" must love other off-flavors as well. I can also pretty much guess they've never brewed the same beer, fermented at different temperatures, and tasted them side-by-side.

I'm definitely in agreement here. My first few hefe's were quite undesireable due to over-the-top esters and phenols generated at higher temps. For starters, the banana was so pronounced I couldn't even taste the malt, but there was also an overpowering all-spice/cinammon/clove flavor that hit you up front and continued all the way through finish. Not nice at all. Those flavors can be desireable, but not in large, unbalanced quantities that take away from other aspects of the beer.

After doing some reading, I began to ferment at lower temps with a marked improvement in quality.

I've also noticed that pitched the proper amount of yeast is crucial with hefes (all beers, really.) I've fermented a couple at lower temps that still had overpowering flavors and realized it was from underpitching.
Pitch a healthy 2L starter and ferment low: you won't be disappointed.

 

[enricocoron]

Yes, I have to say that even at 68 constant I feel the spice note is a little overpowering...not just the corriander I added you can definitely taste that clove flavor a little too much. You can taste the esters a little full as well, and in combination with the low body it's not ideal. I'm going to transfer my lager to the house fridge in a couple weeks, which will allow me to use my controller to ferment a weizen at 62.....which I guess means no beer from the kegs during that time but that's cool, theres plenty of commercial beers to try.

 

[KaSaBiS]

resurecting an old thread:
I have brewed edworts recipe 2 times prior to having oxygen and yeast starters. I have just brewed JZ's hefe recipe, essentially the standard for style. but I was afraid of having the same outcome of my 1st two attempts. 1st attempt was too warm and, I agree, off flavors assoc. with warm ferment are not desirable at all. 2nd time I used wyeast again but fermented at 68 temp. It was still missing something.

the latest attempt I did a decoction mash, and had 25% munich, bumped up the wheat, and fermented at 62. I pitched at 62 and kept it steady, mashed at 152 I believe, and used proper pitching rates. the beer is a little thin, probably because my first decoction mash lead to too long of a protein rest. I get aroma of banana slightly, but no taste of it. I wanted to add richness which is my reason for decoction and munich, but it still seems lacking. I am drinking this fresh out of a keg, the beer is not green, but is weak.

living near the HB in newport KY I get to try their hefe frequently. Very rich, pleasnt balance of clove and banana. I miss it every time.

I think I need to move to another yeast. wheiphenstephen the 1st two attempts and WL300 the 3rd. I am tempted to abandon the style. any suggestions to make a knockout hefe would be appreciated as now I have 35 lbs of wheat I am scrambling to find a use for. weisenbock will most likely be next.

It could be very well my commercial example im referring to doesnt represent the style well, and that I am misunderstanding it to be a poor brew on my part, when in fact it came out as expected (per style)

 

[JPFuller]

I just brewed a batch two days ago myself, 50/50 malted wheat/pilsner plus .25lb of melanoidin malt, into primary at 62F with Wyeast 3068. Was playing with the idea of waiting another 24 hours and boosting ferment temps into the mid 60's. Has anyone ever manipulated this yeast this way, and what came of it if you did?

 

[hop_head76]

Just got to taste my latest batch of hefe a couple weeks ago cold and carbonated...just over 50% german pilsner with balance being German wheat. Step mashed using boiling water as a decoction was not possible for that brew day. Fermented with wlp300 @ 70 degrees. The bananas are very prominent both in nose and taste. Have made virtually the same beer with fermentis dry wheat option with completely different results. Good beer but no bananas like I was looking for.