Heatstick = awesome!

[RJSkypala]

Used my 2000W heatstick today for the first brew in my new apartment...

It was one of the easiest brew days I have ever had. After sparging it took probably no more than 15 minutes for the heatstick to reach boil with my burner and 6.5 gallons of wort. Once there I turned the burner off for the duration of the boil (which was a very hard boil by the way).

It steamed up the apartment but it sure beats standing outside with a propane tank in NY winter.

 

[Walker]

I've been thinking more about this little item, but I wanted to make a couple of observations and direct some questions at anyone who has been using one of these for an extended period of time.

First, it seems like you are betting the farm on the sealing effectiveness of the JB Weld. The pipe and nut (more on those later) are basically little more than a stick onto which you have mounted a heating element that is electrically sealed with JB Weld.

Second, that nut. It is zinc, and will eventually corrode, right? I used some zinc plated screws to fix a problem with my false bottom, and they had corroded after only 3 or 4 batches. And, is there any concern with that zinc in the brewing water?

Then there is the chrome plated brass pipe, also in contact with your water. No real concern with the brass, but what about the chrome plating?

Given these things, it seems to me that you could wire up the element, seal the wires and contacts with JB Weld, and screw it to a dowel rod. The JB Weld is still the key item in terms of electrical insulation, and you have taken the zinc and chrome out of the device.

Thoughts?

 

[Pickngrin]

I can't wait to brew this weekend, my first batch using my 2 new 2000 watt heat sticks.
I do echo Walker's concern about the zinc and how it will hold up/effects from consuming zinc.

 

[erykmynn]

RE: Zinc...


I started a second thread https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/heatstick-materials-question-zinc-158092/ , not realizing this got brought up here.

I just built one, but am too concerned about the Zinc. All of the drain pipe nuts at my HD were Zinc. But a quick google search shows it should be possible to get a Chrome nut too (would that work, plumbing experts)

now the $1,000,000 question is can I get mine apart, or do I start from scratch (and what about the beer I just boiled).

I suppose if someone had the inclination, you could also pursue this sort of avenue... http://purewater4u.com/store/its/zinc.shtml

 

[Walker]

FWIW, I sent am email to John Palmer to see if he had any input.

I'll let you know if he responds.

 

[passedpawn]

There is a Brew Strong podcast titled "Metals that Affect Your Beer". John Palmer focuses his considerable knowledge in this particular area and, likely, answers your question. If you check it out, I thought the discussion on copper in the boil (good) and fermenter (bad) was really interesting. FYI, you can download these podcasts for free with Itunes.

 

[Cpt_Kirks]

I just about finished my second heatstick last night, this one curved. Instead of packing the end of the pipe with JB Weld this time, I potted the wire end of the element with JB weld using a mold. Then, I filled the end around the nut with aquarium silicone.

Since there is so much concern about zinc, I covered the nut with silicone, too. No pot metal or JB Weld will touch the wort or water. I am going to add silicone to my existing stick, too.

Potting the element was so easy, I am about to use that method to make two more heatsticks, that will be built into the lid of my HLT.

 

[Walker]

There is a Brew Strong podcast titled "Metals that Affect Your Beer". John Palmer focuses his considerable knowledge in this particular area and, likely, answers your question.

Thanks for the info. I'll check out the podcast, but John was actually kind enough to respond to the email I sent him yesterday. I had specifically asked him about using a big zinc nut in brewing because I was considering using 1 1" straight-thread nut to attach a heater element through a hole in the side of my HLT (I did not ask specifically about these heatsticks).

Anyway, here's what he had to say about using a zinc nut:

If it is just for the HLT, then you would probably be okay. The health risk from Zinc is minor, unless you are making fruit juice and vodka wine in a galvanized trash can. That will give you a hell of a headache.
The only real worry for you with one locknut is over stimulation of the yeast - I would not recommend putting that nut in the wort boiler, but it may be okay for the HLT. Watch for corrosion (dissolution of the zinc).

I sent a follow-up asking about the chrome plated brass and will port back here if he responds to me again.

 

[erykmynn]

Well I ruined my heatstick trying to get the Zinc nut off. So score that JB Weld 1 - Eric 0....

I know my nut was Zinc because it was labeled as such. It was a great design too, a 1 1/2 x 1 1/4 slip nut with a big rubber grommet that snugged the threads real nice and helped minimize JB Weld -> water contact.

Q) I put that rubber gasket in place of the smaller one that came on the element. Now I wonder if I should do the same, or keep that unknown rubber away from the element....

Anyways, I stopped in a hardware store this morning and confirmed its kind of a crap-shoot as to slip nut composition. Most of the nuts that came on pipes were obviously Zinc. The ones hanging by themselves *looked* like chrome, but were not labeled, so I was too nervous to commit. The guy at the store said something cryptic like "they all got a little chrome in them"
Q) I think I can tell just by looking, but can I tell just by looking if it is Zinc vs Chrome?

So I didn't get any new parts yet, but I did get some Plumbers Epoxy putty. It's NSF rated for potable water and temp rated to 300 degrees! I'm hoping it will be a slightly more sanitary choice than JB Weld, and will relate back here if it works.

 

[Walker]

can I tell just by looking if it is Zinc vs Chrome?

It's pretty easy to tell chrome apart from non-chrome.

Chrome plating will leave the thing super clean looking and reflective - like a mirror.

Zinc will look lustery, but not shiny.

But... no one has yet said "good" or "bad" about chrome.

 

[Walker]

But... no one has yet said "good" or "bad" about chrome.

I did some searching, and... DUH... chrome plating is used on silverware, so it should be safe.

Plus, I found this:
http://www.finishing.com/407/84.shtml

 

[erykmynn]

I did some searching, and... DUH... chrome plating is used on silverware, so it should be safe.

Plus, I found this:
http://www.finishing.com/407/84.shtml

Yup, chrome is considered inert. And pretty.

Which reminded me of something else I've seen pop up. Some people suggested there is some zinc in the coating on the water heater elements, but the one I had looked like 100% chrome.

There are also Zinc test strips available if anyone thinks it's a necessary investigation to check their output.

 

[wyzazz]

Ummm, not to be a smart ass but if these things had toxic metals on them those of us with Electric Water Heaters would probably be dead by now. Right?

 

[erykmynn]

Ummm, not to be a smart ass but if these things had toxic metals on them those of us with Electric Water Heaters would probably be dead by now. Right?

Actually water heaters often have a zinc "sacrificial anode". Plus zinc is a nutrient at levels below 40mg/day (11mg day recommended).

But one important difference is that pH is lower in mash or wart than in drinking water. And even at a "safe" level there is still concern for longevity of parts and effects on the flavor and yeasties.

So I guess there is a lot of different aspects to this discussion... but, I agree. I am not concerned about the metal in the element, but I am concerned about the parts used to construct the heatstick.

 

[Walker]

Ummm, not to be a smart ass but if these things had toxic metals on them those of us with Electric Water Heaters would probably be dead by now. Right?

I don't think anyone is worried about the heater element. I was concerned about the drain pipe and nut used to make the handle for the thing, which are two items not normally in contact with anything you ingest.

 

[erikrocks]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but...If you coat the nut with JB Weld, why would it matter whether it was zinc?

 

[Walker]

Maybe I'm missing the point, but...If you coat the nut with JB Weld, why would it matter whether it was zinc?

The instructions don't indicate to do that, so I'm betting that a lot of folks don's have the thing completely covered. But, given the info from Palmer and the fact that water heaters contain sacrificial zinc elements, I think the zinc is probably just fine (in WATER at least, but maybe not in wort).

I suspect the chrome is fine given the info dug up online.

Sounds like the JB Weld is also OK to use.

So, I feel a little more comfortable with the materials used now, as long as I am just heating water with it.

I was not trying to poo-poo this thing. The concept is awesome... I just wanted to research the materials being used some more before ignorantly building something that was poisoning me.

Carry on.....

 

[erykmynn]

The instructions don't indicate to do that, so I'm betting that a lot of folks don's have the thing completely covered. But, given the info from Palmer and the fact that water heaters contain sacrificial zinc elements, I think the zinc is probably just fine (in WATER at least, but maybe not in wort).

I suspect the chrome is fine given the info dug up online.

Sounds like the JB Weld is also OK to use.

So, I feel a little more comfortable with the materials used now, as long as I am just heating water with it.

I was not trying to poo-poo this thing. The concept is awesome... I just wanted to research the materials being used some more before ignorantly building something that was poisoning me.

Carry on.....

I plan to use mine in wort, and many people do, so there is some additional concern there.

Walker, did you build already? or are looking. I know many nuts are Zinc but some are chrome.

As far as coating in JB Weld. I think that is sub-optimal, regardless of the safety of JB Weld. I tried to minimize water<->epoxy contact in my stick. I'd much rather rebuild with a Chrome nut than just slop epoxy all over it.

 

[Walker]

Walker, did you build already? or are looking.

I have not built anything. I was just researching.

I honestly don't know if I will build one of these. My goal with electricity is just to maintain the temp of water in a stainless pot, which will be serving as a HLT and heat exchanger in a HERMS system. (The actual heating-up of the water will be done with propane... I would just need to maintain the temp with electricity during the mash and recirculation.)

I priced out the items at my local Lowe's a few days ago and it was approaching $40 or $50 to build a 1500W/120V version.

Given that cost and the spooky fact of having the electricals submerged in water, I think I am either going to drill and install the element through the side of the pot or just buy one of these items, which are pre-assembled and UL rated:

http://www.kyhorse.com/store/equipment/bucketheater.htm

Those are lower wattage than what I could build, but I think they would work for maintaining the temp of 4 gallons of hot water.

 

[erykmynn]

OK So I've been to two hardware stores today, and it looks like most of the Slip Nuts that are on the shelf there, separate, are in fact Chrome-plated. (this does not necessarily apply to nuts that come with the chrome drain pipes).

Note: this is for neighborhood hardware stores, at HD, all the nuts were Zinc so far as I could tell.

I have a nice, shiny chrome nut now! Last time I found that the 1 1/2 x 1 1/4 reducing nut snugs up around the element threads real nicely and helps minimize the chance of contact of the insides and epoxy with the water.

So now I'm just wondering, should I still use the poly washer that came with the nut, a rubber washer that fits the nut (like last time), or the narrower but workable rubber washer that comes with the element? Or should I just go metal on metal with epoxy to seal?

 

[erykmynn]

Last week I rebuilt my heat-stick, this time without the evil Zinc nut. Found a nice chrome nut instead. You can see from my picture that the nut and pipe are shiny chrome, and looks like the base of the element is too.

You can also see that using a 1 1/2 x 1 1/4 reducing nut is a better choice because it seals nicely on the element gasket and I was able to acheive having almost ZERO epoxy exposed to the outside.


Here you can see the difference between the Chrome (left) and Zinc (right) nut.

I also used plumbers epoxy putty, which is NSF certified for drinking water, and happy to 300 degrees. It was ok to work with, some pieces came off a bit dry. Moistened fingers seemed to help it be sticky and pliable.


you can view the rest of my pictures here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/adventurelogue/MakingAHeatstickForHomebrewing


----
Please heed the warnings at: http://www.cedarcreeknetworks.com/heatstick.htm and use common sense if you build one of these

------
walker: I also noticed bargainfittings has "water heater element nut + oring" for like $9. That might make your electric HLT pretty simple?

 

[Pickngrin]

I brewed with my 2 new heatsticks for the first time this past weekend. I wound up using just 1 for the boil most of the time. I like this system of electric brewing, though I too am now concerned about the zinc issue. I made the 2nd heatstick with silicone, so that I can easily disassemble it (and replace the nut with a chrome nut?). I am still on the fence as to whether to proceed with using these as is...

 

[geebert74]

I honestly like the turkey fryer option much better... If there is a mess, your outside! No need to worry.

 

[erykmynn]

I brewed with my 2 new heatsticks for the first time this past weekend. I wound up using just 1 for the boil most of the time. I like this system of electric brewing, though I too am now concerned about the zinc issue. I made the 2nd heatstick with silicone, so that I can easily disassemble it (and replace the nut with a chrome nut?). I am still on the fence as to whether to proceed with using these as is...

It's my understanding that even if it doesn't hurt you, the Zinc is going to corrode a lot faster.

Also, in talking with the guy with the how-to page. He said he was able to disassemble the ones he built with silicone when he went back in to epoxy them. On the other hand, mine built with JB weld just broke apart instead when I attempted to get the nut off. IMO it was worth doing it right with the better parts.

 

[Walker]

walker: I also noticed bargainfittings has "water heater element nut + oring" for like $9. That might make your electric HLT pretty simple?

Yes, that option has been there all along. I was just trying to see if I could get away with $2 for an o-ring and 1" nut bought at the local hardware rather than paying $14 (after shipping) from bargainfittings.

 

[Walker]

I wanted to make one more comment here about the gauge of extension cord you need to be using for these doohickeys.

The amp rating for a wire (in open air) is higher than the amp rating for that same wire when bundled into a multi-wire cord.

For example, a 12 gauge wire is rated for 20A, but a 12 gauge extension cord is only rated for 15A.

Anyone driving a 2000W element on 120V and using a 12 gauge cord should be mindful of that, because you are pulling over 16A.

edit: I'm sure there is some safety margin on the amp rating, but you are pushing into the world of "not recommended".

2nd edit: I can see that this warning was already issued a couple of times in this thread, but it's probably worth mentioning again.

 

[KYB]

Hmm. A heatstick seems like a good way to do a step mash in a cooler MLT. Anything I'm missing that would make it not ideal to do so?

 

[Walker]

It's probably possible to do it, but you need to consider how long it will take to heat the mash up from one step to the next. I've never done step mashes, so I don't even know what the first (protein?) rest is supposed to happen at.

 

[Walker]

Last week I rebuilt my heat-stick, this time without the evil Zinc nut. Found a nice chrome nut instead.

FYI, I wrote an email to the guy at Cedar Creek, and it turns out that the drain pipes he is using came with chrome nuts. He mentioned that the zinc issue/question has been brought up to him a number of times and he would put info about it on his next update.

 

[Pickngrin]

FYI, I wrote an email to the guy at Cedar Creek, and it turns out that the drain pipes he is using came with chrome nuts. He mentioned that the zinc issue/question has been brought up to him a number of times and he would put info about it on his next update.

Thanks for informing us about this.
I can't imagine there is any way that I can remove the zinc nut that has JB Weld on the threads holding it to the element base, is there?

 

[erykmynn]

Thanks for informing us about this.
I can't imagine there is any way that I can remove the zinc nut that has JB Weld on the threads holding it to the element base, is there?

no, trying to turn the nut with JB weld on it completely shredded my element

 

[erykmynn]

Yes, that option has been there all along. I was just trying to see if I could get away with $2 for an o-ring and 1" nut bought at the local hardware rather than paying $14 (after shipping) from bargainfittings.

hmm, they have some on this page, but they're still a bit pricey...
http://www.plumbingsupply.com/stainles.html

brass wasn't significantly cheaper either.

 

[erykmynn]

FYI, I wrote an email to the guy at Cedar Creek, and it turns out that the drain pipes he is using came with chrome nuts. He mentioned that the zinc issue/question has been brought up to him a number of times and he would put info about it on his next update.

It wasn't hard to find chrome nuts once I knew that was what I needed, but HD only had zinc.

 

[Pickngrin]

I wonder if there is something that we can use to coat the zinc nut (for those of us who have already assembled heat sticks with them) to prevent or slow the corroding process.

 

[Scut_Monkey]

Where did you happen to find this chrome reducing option? I used one from home depot that is labeled as "chrome" although it looks exactly like the one you have pictured on the right that is zinc. We'll see when I use it.

I wish I would have used the plumbers epoxy. It seems like it would have been easier to use than JB weld.

 

[Gritsak]

Where did you happen to find this chrome reducing option?

x2...that looks perfect.


I still think the best option for sealing the element wiring is to use a coupling of some sort around the base of the element that is filled with epoxy, jb weld, etc.

Here's a pic of mine drying:

It slips snugly into the end of the drainpipe...i add sealant when i slip it in, but even if liquid were to get into the pipe it wouldn't come in contact with exposed wiring

 

[Jersh]

x2...that looks perfect.


I still think the best option for sealing the element wiring is to use a coupling of some sort around the base of the element that is filled with epoxy, jb weld, etc.

I did something similar with mine, although I didn't use a PVC coupler... I simply took a piece of some heavy paper box tape, and wrapped it around the black rectangle that houses the electrical connections on base of the heating element (I attached my wires first). I then used a small diameter wooden dowel to stuff JB weld down into it, and the tape contained it perfectly. I let it cure for a good 48 hours before removing the tape, and the tape came over clean as can be. The electrical connections were perfectly encapsulated by the JB weld.

 

[Walker]

To anyone who has built a 1500W stick...

Do you find that you can maintain a boil of 6 or 7 gallons of liquid with it?

 

[Gritsak]

To anyone who has built a 1500W stick...

Do you find that you can maintain a boil of 6 or 7 gallons of liquid with it?

I doubt it...i have to use help from my stove to maintain a strong boil with my 2000W element

 

[Walker]

Yeah, I just found this posting from Pol, too, which indicates that an uninsulated pot needs about 3500W pf power to maintain a good boil with 7 gallons:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/electric-brew-kettles-112559/#post1242241

That, and your response, have answered my questions.