Heating Elements and GFCI

[olympionex]

By the way, the home depot site lists the $49 as online only. I just bought one at my local store 2 hours ago, so that isn't true. YMMV, but if you want it, you might as well check. Also Home Depot and Lowe's both sell Stainless Steel-esque heating elements. The ones at HD are $17 for a 5500 Watt and are resistant to dry-firing (haven't ruined to heat sticks doing that before =) ) and are low watt density.

 

[Marsdude]

could someone post a link to one of these 110v/220v dd throw GFIC breakers..
I still cant decide to go with both a 110 circuit and a 220 stand alone..
what about using a hot tub breaker would that be to many amps.. 50 a for a 20 amp circuit
Thanks

Here is a link to one type of a GFCI breaker:

http://www.mrsupply.com/product.php?productid=30326

Do you want to install the breaker in your service panel to power an outlet that you will plug your brew setup into? If so, you could install a 20A breaker in a sub-panel on one leg of the 240V circuit.

 

[olympionex]

My testing leads me to conclude that my $49 box + breaker IS GFCI protected on both the 240 and 120 volt legs. For 240, I don't actually have a suitable high resistance path to ground in order to trip the GFCI. When I connected the ground directly to one of the 120 legs, I tripped the non-GFCI current breaker in the garage. The breaker has a test button, so I'll assume that works as it is supposed to. For 120, I hooked up my trusty GFCI tester (err... heatstick that did not survive the dry firing 'test') and the GFCI breaker tripped as planned. I then connected a 60W light bulb on the 120 leg and the bulb worked fine. So it looks like $49 does the trick. Plus the accompanying box has enough room to mount a few outlets as well, though you'll need to cut the metal box yourself.

 

[CorgiBrew]

Thanks passedpawn, that's exactly whal I'm looking for!

 

[olympionex]

By the way, the GFCI Breaker in the Home Depot Box is a standard looking snap in breaker. That said, I don't know what types of load centers it fits in. I don't know which breakers work in which boxes, generally. I'm going to check later to see if it fits in my Eaton box.

 

[wildwest450]

I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.

 

[olympionex]

I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.

I'm not sure that is quite fair. There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, to be sure. Anyone who does not understand the the basics of electricity, the inherent risks in dealing with it, and what it means to to mitigate instead of eliminate those risks should not be using this thread / board to learn these matters. The beneficial advice on this thread / board comes from alerting people to the dangers, educating them in what not to do, and providing information and sourcing for information and components to help those that know something about electricity.

If you previously knew nothing about electricity and think you now know enough after reading this thread, think again. That said, I think there is some useful information contained in the pages that might prevent someone from doing something more foolish with less information and having a greater chance of getting hurt.

 

[wildwest450]

There is a LOT of misinformation in this thread, to be sure.

Exactly, that makes my point. I'm not here to argue, I stand by my first statement.

 

[CorgiBrew]

I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.

Like the advice I got to rethink my licensed electricial's advice and install a GFCI breaker? I guess I'm an idiot, then. Thanks for your help.

 

[CodeRage]

I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.

And you're about as cuddly as a porcupine.

 

[Walker]

Probably time to close this thread before it gets REALLY ugly.

 

[CorgiBrew]

Probably time to close this thread before it gets REALLY ugly.

Truly. Nice hat!

 

[Walker]

Truly. Nice hat!

Wait until Easter rolls around. I've got a set of bunny ears ready to roll.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I've learned one thing and one thing only from this thread. Anyone who takes electrical advice from anyone on this board is a fool.

Wait. What? It seems to me that all questions were answered an the electrical safety issues have been ironed out. What misinformation remains?

I've learned several things from this thread, your take-away was not one of them.

 

[illin8]

I agree with Boerderij...the initial comments were off base, but without the 'in-depth' discussion and shedding some light on it, the issues brought up may have never been understood by those that don't know better.

Second best thing is learning from your mistakes...the best thing is not to make them in the first place.

 

[willynilly]

Great thread. There are always naysayers on the interweb.

 

[the_Roqk]

I liked the in-depth discussion on here and this thread in general. This thread has helped me look at my own panel and what I WILL need for my own setup as well as making sure that it's done safely. I'm the kinda person that will research a topic until I feel absolutely confident that either I can do it safely or not at all. If I can't do it myself then hell yes by all means I will find someone that can. If I am unsure then I will continue to dig. This forum IS a great resource.

 

[Walker]

I am curious to know who wildwest WOULD take electrical advice from.

The OP talked to an electrician, which is the logical choice, but that ended up with him getting some bad info.

I'm an electrical engineer myself, and will be the first person to say that an electrician is a much better consultant on this kind of thing than an EE. I've talked to no less than 3 electricians about my own in-progress build.

 

[lschiavo]

I don't know how I missed this one but I just read the whole thread. I am an electrical contractor with a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand the confusion. The first time I saw a two pole GFI, I was confused on its function and needed to do some research to understand it.

I cannot believe a licensed electrician could give such advice! Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying. How about "I dont know but I can find out for you". I use that all the time.

I noticed someone earlier mention needing only 20A but wanting to use a spa panel as the GFI is cheaper. I am planning to use a spa panel for cost reasons and feeding a subpanel from it. Then you can add any combination of standard breakers you want and have all circuits protected. This is exactly what happens inside the spa. Motors, pumps, lights etc...all fed from one GFI.

 

[Walker]

I can't stay away from this thread. The link posted very early (how GFCI works) has all the goods in it.

I'd like to try and summarize the clever science involved in a way that is not terribly difficult to follow, because when I read about it to gain my own understanding I found it very elegant and simple. Pure genius, really.

The key to the whole thing is a small coiling piece of metal, formed into a ring like a donut. If you take a device like this and run a wire through the center of the donut, you have the beginnings of a GFCI device. When current travels along that line through the hole, electro-magnetic forces are created around the wire. These forces cause current to start to flow through that coil, even though the donut and the current carrying wire are not actually physically in contact with each other.

When current is flowing one way (say left-to-right) in the wire, the current in the coil flows one way (say counterclockwise around the donut). When current on the wire in the hole moves the other way (right-to-left) the donut carries current in the clockwise direction.

When there is no net current moving on the line int he center of the donut, the donut coil itself carries no current.

So.... to make a GFCI detector....

All lines that are permitted to carry current in the circuit (be they hot lines or neutral lines) are passed through the doughnut hole together. The coil will monitor ALL of them simultaneously. If there is a net current flowing left-to-right, the coil carries counter-clockwise current. If there is a net flow of current from right-to-left, the coil carries clockwise current. If there is no net flow of current, the coil carries no current.

All that needs to be done then is to have circuitry that monitors the current IN THE DONUT COIL itself. If there is ever current moving around the donut in either the clockwise or counterclockwise direction at all, then that means that net current of the total group of lines passing through the center of the donut is not balanced and some current has found an alternate way of getting out of the system.

It does not matter if you are monitoring 1 hot and 1 neutral, 2 hots alone, 2 hots and a neutral, or even 101 hots and 37 neutrals.... it is totally irrelevant. All that matters is that all of these lines are passing through the hole of the magic donut coil and that the amount of current that is flowing left-to-right in some of the wires in the group is also flowing right-to-left in other wires in that group.

 

[ftlstrings]

check. Bottom line here: install the damn GFI and get on with it. I can tell you from experience (happy story) that GFIs work with only 3 lines. My all-electric rig has a shielded cable on the thermocouple. This got in contact with the hot side and with the chassis of the brew sculpture when it was pushed in after a brew day. My brewing buddy was getting it ready for a new brew day, powered up the unit, sent juice to the PID (and heat element), and got his **** saved when the GFI immediately tripped.

install the GFI. If you buy one off Ebay or second hand, get it checked out by someone who knows their ****. period. you make homebrew because you love to, not because you want someone else to buy your kid their first beer because their dad died in some stupid accident.

I'll stop now.

 

[diatonic]

... The key to the whole thing is a small coiling piece of metal, formed into a ring like a donut. If you take a device like this and run a wire through the center of the donut

So, you're saying, all I need are metal donuts and wire and I can be safe. I'm going to use the Walker metal donut & wire safety mechanism on my new rig. It's all the rage.

All kidding aside, there is good info in this thread.

 

[lschiavo]

Nice description Walker. That should put the "need a neutral" idea to bed.

 

[P-J]

I don't know how I missed this one but I just read the whole thread. I am an electrical contractor with a degree in electrical engineering. I can understand the confusion. The first time I saw a two pole GFI, I was confused on its function and needed to do some research to understand it.

I cannot believe a licensed electrician could give such advice! Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying. How about "I dont know but I can find out for you". I use that all the time.

I noticed someone earlier mention needing only 20A but wanting to use a spa panel as the GFI is cheaper. I am planning to use a spa panel for cost reasons and feeding a subpanel from it. Then you can add any combination of standard breakers you want and have all circuits protected. This is exactly what happens inside the spa. Motors, pumps, lights etc...all fed from one GFI.

Your observation "Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying." is refreshing.

A thought on the use of a spa panel. If one can find a spa panel that is made by the same company as your main panel, simply move that GFCI into your main panel to feed the spa panel. Then the spa panel can be mounted on the brew rig. It normally has room for several standard breakers. The GFCI, when located in the spa panel, only protects one circuit, not the panel.

Here is a diagram to sort of show a setup (click the image to see a full scale pix):

 

[Walker]

So, you're saying, all I need are metal donuts and wire and I can be safe. I'm going to use the Walker metal donut & wire safety mechanism on my new rig. It's all the rage.

All kidding aside, there is good info in this thread. I know there's no cat torture, but there is some good info, so it has its redeeming qualities.

Yeah. Get a couple slinky toys and your good to go.

Nice description Walker. That should put the "need a neutral" idea to bed.

I'm hoping it put the idea of how many of which kind of wire to bed completely!

 

[Ohio-Ed]

SPA Panels are great for GFI protection, but keep in mind you still need overcurrent protection for the wiring...

There are messages talking about moving the the SPA Panel's GFCI breaker to the main breaker panel, or buying a larger GFCI than needed because it's cheaper. A 60amp SPA panel may be cheaper than a 30amp GFCI, but then you either need to use larger wire or include the correct size breaker in the supply line.

 

[Walker]

+1 to Ohio Ed. I am going to need close to 40A in total in the box so I am using a 50A GFCI breaker in the panel. But, after entering the box and going through the power distribution block (rated for 65A), the first thing the power lines connect to is small inexpensive panel mount circuit breakers. From there, the power goes through the rest of the components on it's way to the elements.

I effectively have a subpanel built into the control box.

 

[diatonic]

My solution to that was 25A fuses on each of the hot legs... I've calculated my current draw at 21A.

 

[Walker]

That's the way to do it. You just have to make sure to use wiring and components that can handle the 25A. IF something bad happens causing 24A to get pulled into the system, even though you expect only 21A, you don't want wire melting or things catching on fire.

 

[lschiavo]

Your observation "Some people need to talk even though they have no idea what they are saying." is refreshing.

A thought on the use of a spa panel. If one can find a spa panel that is made by the same company as your main panel, simply move that GFCI into your main panel to feed the spa panel. Then the spa panel can be mounted on the brew rig. It normally has room for several standard breakers. The GFCI, when located in the spa panel, only protects one circuit, not the panel.

Here is a diagram to sort of show a setup (click the image to see a full scale pix):

Yeah, that is exactly what I am talking about (in a nice diagram form). As long as the wire from the GFI to the distribution block or subpanel is rated for the size of the main GFI breaker, you can split off as many circuits as you would like with inexpensive standard breakers or panel mount breakers or fuses as mentioned earlier.