Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[GRBC]

also, video shows a brew sheet. 1.076 OG, 1.013 FG . appears target of 750 hardness?

Wow! I wonder how much gypsum you have to have add to get to 750 total hardness - almost entirely from calcium, and given that it only shows 35ppm of chloride (so it's either gypsum or chalk he's adding, and I doubt it's chalk)?!

 

[TrickyDick]

For me it was 17 grams for a keg. My TH was only 150, the 17 brought it up to par. Also needed 1g CaCl.
Foamed up the keg a bit, and first pour was extra chunky. The Conan yeast doesn't really floc well. Also have hop debris from the dry hops getting racked over from primary.
TD

 

[chato]

Wow! I wonder how much gypsum you have to have add to get to 750 total hardness - almost entirely from calcium, and given that it only shows 35ppm of chloride (so it's either gypsum or chalk he's adding, and I doubt it's chalk)?!

The brew sheet shows 2775 grams gypsum added to 776 gallons of liquor. On the homebrewer scale, that equates to ~27 grams gypsum into 7.75 gallons of strike water. That seems like a very high sulfate content (~372 ppm for Champlain Valley water).

 

[beeber]

What did your fermentation schedule look like?

65 degrees for 3 weeks.

 

[ianmatth]

Sounds like I'm on the right track with the gypsum because I put 4 large tsp in 8 gallons of strike water, unfortunately I forgot to do it before I added the grain, so I opened my mash tun about 30 minutes in and added it.

 

[Shuasha]

Did anybody else notice they only specify a 60 minute boil?

 

[brewski09]

Was the bre sheet even for heady topper?

 

[droder1]

Was the bre sheet even for heady topper?

Um.... yes. very clearly. the video was for the 1,000th batch of HT at the cannery.

 

[Ilan34]

Any opinions on subbing out the Amarillo with Azacca? I have a bunch of that left and I hear the latest crop of Amarillo is grassy.

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[showcow]

Brewing the current clone recipe on page 1 today. Planning on 7 gallons at flame out so that I get at least 5 in the fermentor. Yeast bay yeast came all the way to the east coast 3 days after I ordered, which is great!

 

[ianmatth]

I have done this clone four times and subbed Amarillo every time, usually with some combination of Citra, El Dorado and Galaxy, mainly because I think Amarillo is overrated. It turned out great every time, and I'm sure I would have liked it less if I had used Amarillo. I think most of the other hops are pretty definitive, but Amarillo is definitely one that can be subbed in my opinion. I think you could sub out Amarillo with Centennial as well and I seriously doubt you'd notice that much behind all the Simcoe and CTZ. I've never used Azacca, but from how it is described I'm sure it would be a fine substitute for Amarillo.

 

[Ilan34]

I have done this clone four times and subbed Amarillo every time, usually with some combination of Citra, El Dorado and Galaxy, mainly because I think Amarillo is overrated. It turned out great every time, and I'm sure I would have liked it less if I had used Amarillo. I think most of the other hops are pretty definitive, but Amarillo is definitely one that can be subbed in my opinion. I think you could sub out Amarillo with Centennial as well and I seriously doubt you'd notice that much behind all the Simcoe and CTZ. I've never used Azacca, but from how it is described I'm sure it would be a fine substitute for Amarillo.

Good to hear, thanks. Now I'm just hoping that the Yeast Bay comes through in time. I ordered on Thursday, but I haven't gotten a shipment notice yet - hoping to do a starter by Thursday.

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[stpug]

I have done this clone four times and subbed Amarillo every time, usually with some combination of Citra, El Dorado and Galaxy, mainly because I think Amarillo is overrated. It turned out great every time, and I'm sure I would have liked it less if I had used Amarillo. I think most of the other hops are pretty definitive, but Amarillo is definitely one that can be subbed in my opinion. I think you could sub out Amarillo with Centennial as well and I seriously doubt you'd notice that much behind all the Simcoe and CTZ. I've never used Azacca, but from how it is described I'm sure it would be a fine substitute for Amarillo.

You sound very biased against Amarillo, but subbing it out should be fine considering this recipe isn't from the brewery itself.

 

[brewski09]

Not the first anti-Amarillo hop person I've found. Good that you know you don't like it. Once I nail this recipe, I'll probably try your subs because they sound good even if not like the original. FWIW, I hate glacier and can pick it out even in relatively small amounts because it tastes like soap (think zombie dust - people love it. I would buy it for trading)


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[ianmatth]

You sound very biased against Amarillo, but subbing it out should be fine considering this recipe isn't from the brewery itself.

I do think it's overrated and overpriced. Think about it this way, there are some highly rated beers that use only Citra, Galaxy, Centennial, or Simcoe, but there are no highly rated beers that use only Amarillo, it is always used in conjunction with another hop, usually Simcoe. Vinny from Russian River also didn't have good things to say about an Amarillo only experimental beer they made. I have a thread where I give my feedback on 30 hops used as dry hops (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/review-30-dry-hops-448562/.) I actually rate Apollo and Chinook at the bottom of the list, but I would probably move Apollo a little higher now because at ~10% inclusion (mainly my experience from the Heady clone) it really seems to add something good, but dry hopping with 100% Apollo is nasty.

 

[hopstupid]

I do think it's overrated and overpriced. Think about it this way, there are some highly rated beers that use only Citra, Galaxy, Centennial, or Simcoe, but there are no highly rated beers that use only Amarillo, it is always used in conjunction with another hop, usually Simcoe. Vinny from Russian River also didn't have good things to say about an Amarillo only experimental beer they made. I have a thread where I give my feedback on 30 hops used as dry hops (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/review-30-dry-hops-448562/.) I actually rate Apollo and Chinook at the bottom of the list, but I would probably move Apollo a little higher now because at ~10% inclusion (mainly my experience from the Heady clone) it really seems to add something good, but dry hopping with 100% Apollo is nasty.

When it's mixed with Simcoe in the dryhop it creates Fruit bombs. Pat from alpine likes it I think since he named a beer after Simcoe & Amarillo.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/3120/27604/

Some other ones are Kern Citra and Sculpin.

 

[masonsjax]

Amarillo isn't my favorite. I hate it as a flavor addition, it's almost a metallic taste to me. It's aroma is pleasant, but pretty weak. I just don't think it has the qualities to justify the premium price.

 

[ianmatth]

When it's mixed with Simcoe in the dryhop it creates Fruit bombs. Pat from alpine likes it I think since he named a beer after Simcoe & Amarillo.

http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/profile/3120/27604/

Some other ones are Kern Citra and Sculpin.

Yeah, everybody hopped on that Simcoe/Amarillo bandwagon after DFH 90. I've tried quite a few dry hop combinations with varying amounts of Simcoe, Amarillo, Centennial, and Citra. IMO you'll get even more of a fruit bomb mixing Simcoe with Citra, Centennial, El Dorado, or Galaxy.

 

[redshift76]

Not the first anti-Amarillo hop person I've found. Good that you know you don't like it. Once I nail this recipe, I'll probably try your subs because they sound good even if not like the original. FWIW, I hate glacier and can pick it out even in relatively small amounts because it tastes like soap (think zombie dust - people love it. I would buy it for trading)


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? There is no Glacier in Zombie Dust though.

 

[beauvafr]

Best sub for Thomas Fawcett Caramalt ?

 

[Peepmachine]

has anyone tried their clones? I just moved away from the area. The cannery was 10 minutes away, and am a huge heady topper fan, but its getting so rediculous to purchase in our area. He wont sell at the cannery anymore. Im a home brewer as well, kinda new, and havent jumped to all-grain due to space. Is this something that could be made into an extract recipe or no? Let me know. Making it at home is a hell of a lot cheaper, lol! They might as well trade this on the commodities market!

 

[beauvafr]

Correct me if I am wrong.. but these can be used as substitute :

Rahr white Wheat -> Any pale wheat malt
Thomas Fawcett Caramalt > Bairds Carastan light or medium

 

[stpug]

Correct me if I am wrong.. but these can be used as substitute :

Rahr white Wheat -> Any pale wheat malt
Thomas Fawcett Caramalt > Bairds Carastan light or medium

TF Caramalt is in the 15L range so I would feel okay subbing out another similar lovibond british crystal (Bairds Carastan light, but medium is in the 35L range I think).

 

[ianmatth]

You could probably do a partial mash using Golden Promise and Caramalt with some extract (I actually mix Golden Promise and 2-row 50/50 rather than using Pearl, I used Pearl the first time I did the clone, and I don't notice a difference in the malt profile going with a Golden Promise/2-row mix instead), but you aren't going to get the proper malt profile with extract. On the other hand, I think Heady is more about the hops and yeast (Conan), so you might be able to get something somewhat close with extract. All-grain really isn't that difficult. A 50-quart Coleman cooler makes a great mash tun, no need for fancy equipment. I recently added a toilet supply line to the inside for a screen and a ball valve to the outside. The hard plastic tubing from the toilet supply line was a perfect fit in the drain hole and the ball valve is a perfect fit on the outside, I just had to superglue it on or it would get knocked off too easily. Anyway, I've had up to 25 pounds of grain in this, and used it many times without the screen and ball valve using a mesh bag when draining it into the kettle to catch the grain.

 

[brewski09]

It may not be perfect, but should be reasonably close if you use a high quality extract. Just make sure you know what's in it and you should be okay. Again, not perfect.


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[Braufessor]

Well, brewed this clone up about 8 weeks ago - followed the recipe to the letter. Used Gigayeast Vermont Ale. Was able to get a couple Heady's to taste side-by-side with it. Also sent some of my homebrew to another person who had Heady on hand to taste as well.

Appearance - REALLY close.

Flavor - this was a great beer.... really great. But, it was not the same as "Heady." I felt like there were two significant differences in mine. 1.) Mine finished a bit sweet. My gravity went from 1.075 down to about 1.015-16 and that was where it stayed. I am hoping when I brew it again, I can dry it out a bit more. However, I thought this left mine sweeter and fuller than the real thing.
2.) The hops - I felt like mine was "fruitier" and Heady is sort of ..... I don't know, more assertive I guess. Heady had more of a lingering bitterness I felt like. Not sure if my high finishing gravity/malt sweetness was at play with this as well or not.

As I said - I brewed it about 7-8 weeks ago, and I am sitting here drinking the last glass of it as I type. It is a one I bottled off the keg before it kicked...... 2 weeks ago. I would say this is the best IPA I have ever brewed, even though it was not exactly like Heady. Will be brewing this again for sure. In fact, tomorrow I am basically making a "Heady Junior."
I took the recipe as is, and scaled it down to 1.045 gravity and cut the hops in half. Hoping to get a "pale ale version" of this so I can put down a few pints ...... 7-8%IPA's tend to be filling and sneak up on you So, seeing if I can scale it down for summer. I will then harvest yeast from the Heady Junior and rebrew the full version.

Great, Great beer. Thanks for all the work by everyone who contributed. Looking forward to rebrewing it and seeing if I can not improve my process a bit and get it closer.

 

[GCPHomebrew]

BIAB. You can go all grain with your same setup.


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[olotti]

Forgive me for saying this as I appreciate all the advice and hard work and research that has gone into this thread and recipe but it just seems we'll always be chasing the unicorn so to speak in trying to clone Heady. There's just something about that beer and what they do behind the scenes that we will all never know and that's what makes it great but ya know what all that hard work and research has made a darn good beer for alot of people. I myself have never tried brewing the clone recipe its on the to do list and I've had only one Heady and it was the one beer that lived up to it's hype so in the end I'm gonna keep chasing that unicorn with you guys and good work and thanks.

 

[Spraentart]

Forgive me for saying this as I appreciate all the advice and hard work and research that has gone into this thread and recipe but it just seems we'll always be chasing the unicorn so to speak in trying to clone Heady. There's just something about that beer and what they do behind the scenes that we will all never know and that's what makes it great but ya know what all that hard work and research has made a darn good beer for alot of people. I myself have never tried brewing the clone recipe its on the to do list and I've had only one Heady and it was the one beer that lived up to it's hype so in the end I'm gonna keep chasing that unicorn with you guys and good work and thanks.

If it's any indication, this is the best beer I've ever brewed. I have had heady and I remember a smooth IPA like none I've ever had with huge aroma and taste. My version smells incredible and tastes incredible as well. I think those who have assembled this recipe have dedicated a great amount of time and knowledge to this effort and I believe it has paid off.


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[olotti]

If it's any indication, this is the best beer I've ever brewed. I have had heady and I remember a smooth IPA like none I've ever had with huge aroma and taste. My version smells incredible and tastes incredible as well. I think those who have assembled this recipe have dedicated a great amount of time and knowledge to this effort and I believe it has paid off.


Sent from the Bat Cave

Hence the reason I will brew the cloned recipe it makes an amazing beer . I wasn't trying to be disrespecful to all that put the time and effort into getting us this close recipe but it just seems with a beer like Heady there is always that "it" factor that we homebrewers may never know to make it an exact clone.

 

[Shuasha]

I brewed this on Saturday with the water hardness/chloride additions. 12 gallon batch with 2 Gigayeast Vermont Ale packs.

I had no airlock activity or krausen on Sunday morning so I cranked the temp up to 68 from 63. Sunday evening I looked inside and saw bubbles happening and the start of a krausen, yet still no airlock activity. My damn Speidel fermenter's sealing ring was misaligned and was causing the leak. Easy fix and I put the temp back down to 63 and now we're chugging along!

 

[brewski09]

Well, brewed this clone up about 8 weeks ago - followed the recipe to the letter. Used Gigayeast Vermont Ale. Was able to get a couple Heady's to taste side-by-side with it. Also sent some of my homebrew to another person who had Heady on hand to taste as well.

Appearance - REALLY close.

Flavor - this was a great beer.... really great. But, it was not the same as "Heady." I felt like there were two significant differences in mine. 1.) Mine finished a bit sweet. My gravity went from 1.075 down to about 1.015-16 and that was where it stayed. I am hoping when I brew it again, I can dry it out a bit more. However, I thought this left mine sweeter and fuller than the real thing.
2.) The hops - I felt like mine was "fruitier" and Heady is sort of ..... I don't know, more assertive I guess. Heady had more of a lingering bitterness I felt like. Not sure if my high finishing gravity/malt sweetness was at play with this as well or not.

As I said - I brewed it about 7-8 weeks ago, and I am sitting here drinking the last glass of it as I type. It is a one I bottled off the keg before it kicked...... 2 weeks ago. I would say this is the best IPA I have ever brewed, even though it was not exactly like Heady. Will be brewing this again for sure. In fact, tomorrow I am basically making a "Heady Junior."
I took the recipe as is, and scaled it down to 1.045 gravity and cut the hops in half. Hoping to get a "pale ale version" of this so I can put down a few pints ...... 7-8%IPA's tend to be filling and sneak up on you So, seeing if I can scale it down for summer. I will then harvest yeast from the Heady Junior and rebrew the full version.

Great, Great beer. Thanks for all the work by everyone who contributed. Looking forward to rebrewing it and seeing if I can not improve my process a bit and get it closer.

I would say the finishing gravity would make a difference on this beer. Most others, not so much. Heady, it matters. Also look at the posts about the water hardness last week. That could have something to do with it.

Let us know how the heady junior goes. I'm thinking about doing a series of pale ales this summer using Conan.

I would say the


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[paulster2626]

Hence the reason I will brew the cloned recipe it makes an amazing beer . I wasn't trying to be disrespecful to all that put the time and effort into getting us this close recipe but it just seems with a beer like Heady there is always that "it" factor that we homebrewers may never know to make it an exact clone.

The "it" factor is that the recipe changes. Heady today isn't the same as it was 1 or 2 years ago, and it'll be different in 2015.

Chasing goalposts, if you will. At one point this recipe was more or less spot-on.

 

[sweetcell]

Let us know how the heady junior goes. I'm thinking about doing a series of pale ales this summer using Conan.

i'll be doing a saison/pale ale split batch in a week or two. the pale ale half will be with Conan from ECY. i'll post my result in the "Conan Experiences" thread, as to not clog up the space of all you headytopperheads.

 

[Braufessor]

I would say the finishing gravity would make a difference on this beer. Most others, not so much. Heady, it matters. Also look at the posts about the water hardness last week. That could have something to do with it.

Let us know how the heady junior goes. I'm thinking about doing a series of pale ales this summer using Conan.

I would say the


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I will check back in with the Heady Junior results.

I will be curious as to peoples experience with those water additions..... My original batch had 90% RO water. Ca=100, Sulfate=190, Cl=40, Bicarb=40, Total Hardness=275. I really can't imagine dumping that much gypsum in a beer.... like I said, interested to hear the results people get.

 

[TrickyDick]

I did dump that much gypsum...

I had just kegged mine when the video came out. I calculate the mineral additions for a 12 oz glass to bring mine up or close to the brew sheet from the video. It definitely improved the flavor in the glass mixing it into the chilled carbonated beer. So I calculated additions to bring the entire keg up to spec and resealed and shook/rocked it to dissolve. Tastes great!

TD


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[masonsjax]

Maybe veganbrewer can edit the OP and add what we now know about the water profile used.

 

[Brewbien]

Maybe veganbrewer can edit the OP and add what we now know about the water profile used.

He stopped homebrewing. It's very rare that I see him on here anymore other than to post updates about a barrel we filled last year.

 

[mtnagel]

I would love to get to the bottom of the 750 ppm hardness issue. I'm planning on brewing in about a month.

Playing around with Bru'n Water, there is seemingly no good way to get that high without going over the limit on many ions.

With my source water, if I get to 300 ppm SO4 which is 12.9 g gypsum, but that gets only to 368 total hardness. Even if I go to 350 ppm SO4 (BW limit) with 15.6 g gypsum, which brings 153 ppm calcium (150 ppm BW limit), the TH is 420.

TrickyDick, what was your final TH, Ca and SO4 numbers with the 17g gypsum addition? Seemingly they would be above the BW upper limits, but it does say for SO4, "A maximum concentration of 350 ppm is recommended to avoid 'sulfury' aromas in the finished beer although much higher concentrations may be preferred by some tasters." So maybe everyone that likes HT likes a higher amount.

 

[Braufessor]

Did anyone post video/question to the brew science forum to see what Martin or others think about the water issue? They might have some good insights.

**EDIT** I posted the question/info in the BrewScience forum - maybe some good input there.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/heady-topper-video-750-total-hardness-477834/#post6171956