Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[ianmatth]

Has anyone tried doing a taste comparison between the different sources of Conan? I'm in CT and don't have close access to Heady, otherwise I'd love to do this. The sources I know about are:

East Coast Yeast
GigaYeast
Yeast Bay
Heady Topper dregs

I've read here on HBT that ECY, GigaYeast and Heady dregs are all different, and even dregs from different years are different. Does anyone have any info or thoughts on this?

The Heady dregs will most certainly be different depending on what generation it is. I got lucky with the Conan I have from Heady dregs as it consistently gets 85-93% attenuation without the addition of oxygen to the wort.

Regarding hops, in the video, Kimmich says there aren't as much hops as we think in Heady. Is that because of the hop extract, or is it possible that we have the aroma additions wrong?

I think he is talking about late addition and dry hops because he mentions that some other beers use an excessive amount of dry hops. I already mentioned that this clone uses an excessive amount of dry hops in reference to what he said in the video, so I would like to know what they are doing to use less.

 

[barrooze]

Has anyone tried doing a taste comparison between the different sources of Conan? I'm in CT and don't have close access to Heady, otherwise I'd love to do this. The sources I know about are:

East Coast Yeast
GigaYeast
Yeast Bay
Heady Topper dregs

I've read here on HBT that ECY, GigaYeast and Heady dregs are all different, and even dregs from different years are different. Does anyone have any info or thoughts on this?

I've only used Yeast Geek 001 (YG001) and found it to be great yeast. I heard others having issues with it but have had great success with mine. Never having real Heady, I can't compare it to much. I found Green Flash Pallatte Wrecker and my clone being extremely similar, but mine had a slight fruitier yeast presence which gave the beer a much more rounded overall sense. I am so happy with the YG001 yeast. I must have gotten a really good batch!

 

[ddicker60]

More beer has double pitches of Vermont ipa yeast (heady). It's a good price too


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[Jamo99]

Well, I brewed the clone this morning. Got distracted kegging another beer while chilling and my temp dropped all the way to 97F before adding my whirlpool hops. Was going to rack everything off of the kettle hops when going to the carboy, but I guess I will bring everything over to the carboy to make sure I extract as much aroma as possible from the late, late addition.

 

[sweetcell]

I will bring everything over to the carboy to make sure I extract as much aroma as possible from the late, late addition.

i wouldn't do that. you'll be leaving those hops in for a long time...

if you've already transferred to primary, i'd consider racking to secondary once fermentation is done. i generally don't recommend secondaries, but in this case i'd worry about leaving previously-heated hops in the beer for longer than a week and a half.

 

[Jamo99]

With my normally hopped beers, I send the whole kettle to the carboy and ferment for 6+ weeks without a problem. I was going to whirlpool and leave the hop matter in the kettle for this batch because of the quantity of hops. I had a slight concern with it getting a little vegetal, but since it's only 4 weeks to kegs, I blew by my steep temp by about 60 degrees, and it's going to go through a primary fermentation, I'd rather it sit and try to get the biggest bang for my buck with that addition.

I appreciate the advice, but I think it'll be fine for 4 weeks. I've forgotten about a healthy dose of dry hops in an EIPA before for much longer without issue.

Edit: After thinking it over a bit more, I'll probablly split the difference. For the second dose of dry hops I'll keg hop with a stainless steel tea ball. I attach the tea ball with floss to the keg lid so I'll be able to pull it out when necessary.

 

[brewski09]

I'd probably just increase the dry hops. Leave the vegetal matter behind because of the sheer quantity. Also, don't leave the dry hops in too long.


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[JOE_R]

Well, I brewed the clone this morning. Got distracted kegging another beer while chilling and my temp dropped all the way to 97F before adding my whirlpool hops. Was going to rack everything off of the kettle hops when going to the carboy, but I guess I will bring everything over to the carboy to make sure I extract as much aroma as possible from the late, late addition.

I racked my wort slowly through a mesh bag into the carboy when I reached the end target whirlpool temp. I used two bags. As one bag was filling I squeezed the wort from the other bag full of hops, then rinsed and sanitized it. I switched bags and did it all over again. I did this over and over to remove the whirlpool hops. I got one real smooth beer! No vegetal taste at all. It was however, labor intensive... but worth it.

 

[TrickyDick]

Mine is now kegged with second dose dry hops added, and chilling. Will remove the sacks in a couple more days (5 total) and force carb. Can't wait!! Smells amazing!


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[VTCCbrewer]

Thanks to everyone.....been following this thread and now I can report a successful ( although limited qty) brew.....thought I'd give everyone the blow by blow of my experience.....

So after a long and anxious process, we finally did the definitive side by side (blind) taste test. The following is a summary of events over the course of creating our Heady Topper clone. To begin we used Vegan's #4 recipe, but no wheat......reading the Kimmich comment that he avoided it.

April 6 - Single infusion mash, at 153degs for one hour. Yielded 7 gallons of wort. Boiled for an hour, adding 10ml of hop shots at the start and with 5 minutes left added the Simcoe and Apollo. At flameout added the Turbinado. Cooled until temp was 170 degrees and then added the "steeping" hops per recipe. Whirlpooled (by hand) for 30 minutes, keeping the temp between 150 and 160 degs. Noticed dark brown flecks swirling around....it was undisolved turbinado! Transferred to carboy, yield now down to 4.5 gallons! Original gravity only 1.70. Aerated for 10 minutes, pitched 800 mls Yeast Bay Vermont Ale yeast (after 2 step ups).... Temperature was 68 degs...
April 7th - Fermentation started, going strong after 12 hours. Temp held at 68 thanks to a cool closet I use for fermtation.
April 11th - fermentation slowing down, SG check, at 1.021, aroma is definitely there, even before dry hopping. Held temps in the fermenter between 64-68 degrees.
April 13th - Fermentation really slow, checked SG, still 1.02+, decided to ramp up temperature to 70 degrees. Used space heater (not a good solution) and with constant monitoring kept it within 5 degrees over a few days.
April 17th - No change in SG.....tried rouseing the yeast a few days ago, no impact, added packet of SA-05 yesterday, no impact. Looks like a stuck fermentation, but I decided to continue...
April 20th - Added hops for the first dry hop step. Moved the fermenter to the basement where it's a constant 60 degrees.
April 28th - Racked to secondary, added second round of dry hops. The volume has now been reduced to less than 4 gallons!
May 5th - Bottled, yielded 27 12 oz bottles, the amount of hops in solution was amazing, eventually clogging the bottling tip, so I dumped a good amount out. Final Specific Gravity was 1.020.....
May 13th - The Test! We live in Vermont so it's easy to get Heady, as long as you go on Monday morning to the local store that's graced to distribute it..... Bottom line, my clone was somewhat darker, the head was weaker (it did have adequate carbonation, mouth feel was fine) but the flavor was SPOT On! Only difference was a slightly more bitter finish that I think may have to do with less ABV since I came up short on the SG. Also my clone was definitely cloudy, but since I never drank Heady in glass ( great marketing job by Alchemist, you don't see the cloudy) it turns out it was almost as cloudy. A lot of angst....but worth it!

 

[ianmatth]

Congrats on your clone. I have done this clone 3 times and am on step 1 of my two step Conan starter to do it again. This will be the first time I use Hop Shot and I am not using wheat this time either. I've said many times before the Heady taste is more about the dry hops IMO than anything else, but late addition and whirlpool hops, yeast, and grain also play a role as well. I don't think your SG was an issue at all, the FG will throw the ABV off a lot more and also cause your clone to be sweeter. Try it again and pitch more yeast. And if you can get Heady keep harvesting the Conan. You never know what generation you will get. By the time you step up the dregs to a full 1.040 OG starter, you can see how strong the yeast is. Cold crash the yeast and dry hop the starter beer for 3 days. The Conan I have gets it to 1.004 FG or less. The only time I had Heady was from a beer trade, but I got lucky with the Conan I got because it attenuates 85-93% every time.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good to know. I pull dose two of dry hops on Thursday, and then force carb. Hopefully ready to drink by memorial weekend. I think I had 1.011 FG when I checked last. Will check again before force carbonating. I feel I'm in for some frustrating pouring because I racked right from the primary into kegs without a cold crash. A lot of crap made it into the kegs, so it's going to be extra chunky style for a while. Sometimes those pesky hop bits can plug the poppet valves. Fitting the screen onto the dip tube is a colossal PITA. I recently loaned my Paint Gun CO2 injector x FFL fitting to a pal (long story) but thought it'd probably work great for clearing dip tubes if this happens. Need an alternate plan.

I suspect my boil intensity was too low, and I am going to have not quite bitter enough beer. I'm pretty stoked to try this fully chilled and carbonated though. I also did the double sunshine and abner clones. Racked the abner clone into carboys and holy WOW is that Conan yeast hazy. . Oddly the wort was the same, for the two carboys, but I used Conan in one, and Brett Trois in the other. Weird that yeast would make a color difference.

TD


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[VTCCbrewer]

Just for Fun.....check out this link:

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2014/05/14/welch-says-something-about-heady-topper

 

[stpug]

Oddly the wort was the same, for the two carboys, but I used Conan in one, and Brett Trois in the other. Weird that yeast would make a color difference.

While yeast can definitely have an effect on resulting beer color, I've always found clear beer to have a darker appearance than cloudy beer simply because it "catches" less light than cloudy. The less light it "catches" the darker the appearance - generally speaking.

 

[mtnagel]

Just for Fun.....check out this link:

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/OffMessage/archives/2014/05/14/welch-says-something-about-heady-topper

Funny. I was thinking to myself, didn't I read this issue went away. Good thing I read the whole article before posting that.

 

[droder1]

anyone know if they are still only brewing HT at the cannery?

new(ish) video, you can clearly see best malz malt bags in the bag. from all the sleuthing vegan and company did, best malz never came up. we know peal, and then confirmed fawcett caramalt, and guessed white wheat from canada malting. no idea where the best malz comes in.

http://youtu.be/jVItX3hAcno

 

[droder1]

anyone know if they are still only brewing HT at the cannery?

new(ish) video, you can clearly see best malz malt bags in the bag. from all the sleuthing vegan and company did, best malz never came up. we know peal, and then confirmed fawcett caramalt, and guessed white wheat from canada malting. no idea where the best malz comes in.

http://youtu.be/jVItX3hAcno

also, video shows a brew sheet. 1.076 OG, 1.013 FG . appears target of 750 hardness?

 

[eandersen]

They've had special truck sales of some old brews from the brewpub days. Holy Cow, Beezlebub, Focal Banger, The Crusher, and Petit Mutant.


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[TrickyDick]

Holy concrete! 750 hardness?? Seriously?




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[beauvafr]

What is the difference between Boil 0.0 min and Aroma steep 30 min hops?

 

[eandersen]

0.0 - in immediately after the boil finishes
30 minute aroma steep - cool to 180(?, I think this is the temp) and steep hops for 30 minutes


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[sweetcell]

appears target of 750 hardness?

yup, and a Cl of 35.

being super nit-picky: those Plato and SG numbers don't quite match up...

 

[TrickyDick]

Boil 0 minutes means you thrown in the hops when you turn the heat off to your boil kettle. Once finished boiling you would usually proceed to chilling with or without a whirlpool either before after or during the chilling.

Steeping usually implies throwing the hops into the kettle and letting the steep for the specified time, usually after the boil. It usually implies that you let them hang out in the kettle, again either with or without a whirlpool going, and usually implies that there is no active chilling going on, but does not indicate what temp the wort was before you added the hops.

At least that is my interpretation. Because it is known that volatile hop oil can boil off at a variety of temps that can vary based upon what component you're talking about, some people like to chill the wort after the boil before adding the steeping hops. In a video I watched of Kimmich he spoke about cooling the wort as fast as possible once the hops were dropped. I assume this to be the steeping hops. It isn't precisely stated at what temp he adds those hops. What I have done, was to add half the dose of steeping hops at flame out with recirculation pump going and actively chilling and then while I continue to chill, add the rest of the hops once the temp gets below 170. It took me about 40 minutes to finish chilling to pitching temps. I have not had this brew yet because it's not finished carbonating. I have previously tried a similar technique, adding all of the flame out hops at 180, and letting them sit there a while, before starting to chill. I found this didn't work a well as I had hoped it would. Supposedly Kimmich doesn't use mechanical pumps to conduct his whirlpool, claiming it disrupts the hop oils.

TD


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[TrickyDick]

yup, and a Cl of 35.

being super nit-picky: those Plato and SG numbers don't quite match up...

So can I manipulate the water chemistry AFTER fermentation or is it too late. No way that I'm even close to that hardness.

Hardness is the Ca and Mg only isn't it? Need to watch video later tonight and see for myself.

TD


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[droder1]

So can I manipulate the water chemistry AFTER fermentation or is it too late. No way that I'm even close to that hardness.

Hardness is the Ca and Mg only isn't it? Need to watch video later tonight and see for myself.

TD


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it says target hardness: 750 mg/l, very clearly. that is very very hard water. also can see target is 35 CL as sweetcell said.

From the brewsheet, it appears they start with RO water, as it says source water hardness is 20 mg/l. i can also make out that source water chloride is 10 mg/l. it appears 776 gallons of water are used for a batch. there are lines for calcium sulfate and calcium chloride additions. with chloride being so low, the hardness has to be from calcium sulfate (gypsum)?

anyone know the significance of Alkalinity 58% HCC?

Parts per million (ppm) is usually defined as 1 mg/L CaCO3. It is equivalent to mg/L without chemical compound specified, and to American degree.

 

[TrickyDick]

Wish someone would send a beer test sample to ward labs for analysis...

Bigtime aside here - please bear with me on this..
Anyway, wanted to say that the Conan yeast gives off a TON of fruity estery notes and flavors. I bought 15 pounds of guava for a sour beer that I'm doing. My wife opened the mail to find the jerk-offs mailed the fruit by USPS and those fine government employees placed the boxes into my mailbox, which is one of those aluminum mail box pods with multiple boxes grouped together and some larger boxes which packages are placed in, with a key for you to access in your smaller box. I think they sat in there for a couple days before we realized they were in there. Not rotted at all, just very ripe and concentrated aromas that smell like the conan yeast fermentation. It is an uncanny resemblance to the conan aromas. thinking about using guava slices as a garnish!

End of aside.

Again, wondering if I could add the minerals to the beer AFTER its fully fermented.

TD

 

[KindofBlues71]

Again, wondering if I could add the minerals to the beer AFTER its fully fermented.

TD

Check the Basic Brewing audio archives. James Spencer did an experiment on this very thing and did a blind test with several people.

 

[TrickyDick]

I tasted mine today. I was sort of "meh" about it. Has a greenish quality to it. I'll need to search for that basic brewing piece, because after checking my water profile, it seems I am WAAAAYY off. Total Hardness is only 149!!!

TD

edit-

so I listened to the basic brewing experiment about adding the minerals post fermentation.

I looked at my water sheet.

my total hardness was ~150.

to bring TH up to 750, using ONLY CaCl and CaSO4, I would need to add 0.24g/gal CaCl2, bringing CL up to 25. I would also need to add 3.8g/gal Gypsum (WOW!)

This would bump my TH to 757, Ca to 300, CL to 35, Bicarb still at 15.

I might try to scale to one glass (12 fl oz or approx 1/10 gallon) and see what happens.. I suppose I could add to the keg now. However, I wonder if it would be dissolve.....

Will do this and report back. HOWEVER! Why doesn't somebody send a sample of HT into Ward Labs for the Beer test to determine the mineral content!!!! I can't get it in FL so I'm out....

--
EDIT #2
--

So according to my calculations, I added 0.4 grams gypsum and one small kernel of CaCl to a glass (12 oz of beer), which should approximate my calculations using Bru'n Water and the available information about the minerality of the Heady Topper brewing water.

Wow. Big time difference. the minerals totally enhance the hoppiness.

could be the beer #3 effect for the evening, but I think not. the minerals dissolved very nicely into the beer without any problematic foaming. Tomorrow, I treat all my Kegged IPAs with the minerals!

TD
TD

 

[kchomebrew]

Boil 0 minutes means you thrown in the hops when you turn the heat off to your boil kettle. Once finished boiling you would usually proceed to chilling with or without a whirlpool either before after or during the chilling.

Steeping usually implies throwing the hops into the kettle and letting the steep for the specified time, usually after the boil. It usually implies that you let them hang out in the kettle, again either with or without a whirlpool going, and usually implies that there is no active chilling going on, but does not indicate what temp the wort was before you added the hops.

At least that is my interpretation. Because it is known that volatile hop oil can boil off at a variety of temps that can vary based upon what component you're talking about, some people like to chill the wort after the boil before adding the steeping hops. In a video I watched of Kimmich he spoke about cooling the wort as fast as possible once the hops were dropped. I assume this to be the steeping hops. It isn't precisely stated at what temp he adds those hops. What I have done, was to add half the dose of steeping hops at flame out with recirculation pump going and actively chilling and then while I continue to chill, add the rest of the hops once the temp gets below 170. It took me about 40 minutes to finish chilling to pitching temps. I have not had this brew yet because it's not finished carbonating. I have previously tried a similar technique, adding all of the flame out hops at 180, and letting them sit there a while, before starting to chill. I found this didn't work a well as I had hoped it would. Supposedly Kimmich doesn't use mechanical pumps to conduct his whirlpool, claiming it disrupts the hop oils.

TD


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I'm no expert on Heady topper since I live in Kansas City but I second the concept of not whirlpooling and letting hops steep. I believe whirlpooling causes grassier flavors. I stopped doing it and just steep with much better results from a flavor and clarity standpoint.





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[Shuasha]

I tasted mine today. I was sort of "meh" about it. Has a greenish quality to it. I'll need to search for that basic brewing piece, because after checking my water profile, it seems I am WAAAAYY off. Total Hardness is only 149!!!

TD

edit-

so I listened to the basic brewing experiment about adding the minerals post fermentation.

I looked at my water sheet.

my total hardness was ~150.

to bring TH up to 750, using ONLY CaCl and CaSO4, I would need to add 0.24g/gal CaCl2, bringing CL up to 25. I would also need to add 3.8g/gal Gypsum (WOW!)

This would bump my TH to 757, Ca to 300, CL to 35, Bicarb still at 15.

I might try to scale to one glass (12 fl oz or approx 1/10 gallon) and see what happens.. I suppose I could add to the keg now. However, I wonder if it would be dissolve.....

Will do this and report back. HOWEVER! Why doesn't somebody send a sample of HT into Ward Labs for the Beer test to determine the mineral content!!!! I can't get it in FL so I'm out....

--
EDIT #2
--

So according to my calculations, I added 0.4 grams gypsum and one small kernel of CaCl to a glass (12 oz of beer), which should approximate my calculations using Bru'n Water and the available information about the minerality of the Heady Topper brewing water.

Wow. Big time difference. the minerals totally enhance the hoppiness.

could be the beer #3 effect for the evening, but I think not. the minerals dissolved very nicely into the beer without any problematic foaming. Tomorrow, I treat all my Kegged IPAs with the minerals!

TD
TD

I'm brewing this in 2 weeks, I'll shoot for 600 or so on the hardness and report back when it's finished.

 

[Calichusetts]

I'm usually adding 2-3 grams of gypsum and .5-1 grams of Cacl PER GALLON to all my IPAs. Really helps the hops come through

 

[masonsjax]

I got to drink Heady a couple weeks ago. One thing that stood out to me was the slick, almost oily mouthfeel. I wonder if that's primarily from the yeast, or is there something like oats in the grist? That might account for some of the haziness as well.

 

[hopstupid]

I got to drink Heady a couple weeks ago. One thing that stood out to me was the slick, almost oily mouthfeel. I wonder if that's primarily from the yeast, or is there something like oats in the grist? That might account for some of the haziness as well.

hop resin

 

[masonsjax]

I don't notice the same thing in other hoppy beers though. Pliny for instance doesn't have it and that's the most hop saturated beer I've ever had.

 

[hopstupid]

I don't notice the same thing in other hoppy beers though. Pliny for instance doesn't have it and that's the most hop saturated beer I've ever had.

pour heady in a glass you see hop resin.

pour pliny in a glass you don't see hop resin.

Try to get some Pizza Port Swamis thats stuff coats your mouth, pour it in a glass hold it up to the light tons of hop resin

 

[beeber]

My second attempt was dry hopped on Sunday and will be bottled on the weekend. I tasted a sample and it was quite good. Using the Vermont Ale yeast (vs Edme Ale) made a noticible difference. Definitely more sweet and fruity. Also, as I was able to get Apollo for this batch (vs substituting Columbus), the Columbus character that was so noticible in the first batch is not present in batch 2. I can't wait to get this into bottles.

One more thing, batch 2 had the whirlpool at 175 degrees at the start, batch 1 was hotter than that and turned out bitter. Details, details...

 

[Calichusetts]

I don't notice the same thing in other hoppy beers though. Pliny for instance doesn't have it and that's the most hop saturated beer I've ever had.

If we had the equipment and techniques they have we can probably do it much clearer. Some people on the homebrew scale come close and keep it quite clear. The easiest way for us to get there is to use more hops and that is why most are cloudy. If you use gelatin you are pulling some hop oils out. While it might not be the biggest difference it will take away some hoppiness.

Every time I get to the 4 oz per gallon threshold with hops, I get a permenant hop haze. Even with weeks of crashing. I guess I could give it a month but thats not the point of this clone.

Finally, John is pretty clear that the haze is a combination of the pearl malt, yeast and hops, not just hops. He also refuses to use some techniques that could damage the taste of the product.

 

[FATC1TY]

I got to drink Heady a couple weeks ago. One thing that stood out to me was the slick, almost oily mouthfeel. I wonder if that's primarily from the yeast, or is there something like oats in the grist? That might account for some of the haziness as well.

Conan is known to leave that creamy oily finish to a beer. Dry, yet still full.

It's not any oats.

 

[mbbransc]

My second attempt was dry hopped on Sunday and will be bottled on the weekend. I tasted a sample and it was quite good. Using the Vermont Ale yeast (vs Edme Ale) made a noticible difference. Definitely more sweet and fruity. Also, as I was able to get Apollo for this batch (vs substituting Columbus), the Columbus character that was so noticible in the first batch is not present in batch 2. I can't wait to get this into bottles.

One more thing, batch 2 had the whirlpool at 175 degrees at the start, batch 1 was hotter than that and turned out bitter. Details, details...

What did your fermentation schedule look like?

 

[sweetcell]

I'm no expert on Heady topper since I live in Kansas City but I second the concept of not whirlpooling and letting hops steep. I believe whirlpooling causes grassier flavors. I stopped doing it and just steep with much better results from a flavor and clarity standpoint.

for you, what is the difference between whirlpooling and steeping? is the only difference that whirlpooling = wort moving in a circular motion, and steeping = no motion, the wort is still?