Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[TrickyDick]

Thanks. I've done some 140º only hop stands and you really some prolonged rests at higher temps too. Sounds like you may have hit on the right method.

Any recommended fermentation temps for this HT clone?

TD

 

[Petekiteworld]

I've started doing stands starting at 180 and then the hops left in overnight as it cools all the way down...amazing!

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[NuclearRich]

I'll say that I feel like I got the best hopstand aroma from a 20min rest that started at 180F and dropped to 160F. Probably spent most time around 165F. I also felt like I had very subdued aroma from a hopstand at flameout to 185F lasting 20mins.

 

[brewski09]

Hi,

Working a bit on the recipe (from post 1), in BeerSmith. Planning to brew Tuesday.
So, the hop schedule, was wondering, that post 1 says FlameOut hops and then Steeping hops.
Is there a specific/suggested/recommended amount of time to let the FlameOut hops dwell before turning on the immersion chiller to chill to 180ish for the steeping hops to be added?

If I get no specific response, my plan will be to let the FlameOut hops dwell for a good 20-30 minutes, with my whirlpool recirculation arm going, then turn on the chiller leaving whirlpool recirculation going, and let it free-cool (lid on) for 30 minutes, then chill to about 100º before running off through the plate chiller to the fermenter.

Also, fermentation temp schedule? Can someone summarize? Since I cannot get Conan, I am using GigaYeast Vermont IPA yeast on this brew. Never used that yeast before.

Thanks for the work on this one guys.

I'll try to post pics along the way - with great luck, I may be able to use my new plastic temp controlled conical apparatus, but progress has been slow, so I doubt it.

TD

For the flameout hops, you are trying to emulate the brewery's process to a certain degree. I use 15-30 minutes as a reference range with my actual target being 20 minutes for flameout hops. I think this works best on my system. Consistency is key here. Munich has talked about bitterness from his late addition hoops and he gets a lot there so I wouldn't worry about picking up to many autumnal IBU's there. Then I cool to 180F for the whirlpool addition and stand 20-30 minutes. I don't think I get much of anything past 30 minutes so I don't worry about it. Some people do though. In BeerSmith you can adjust your hop utilization for these whirlpool hops. I think I started with 45% at 180F and dropped to about 30% at 170F.

As for the yeast, I would treat it as Conan. Look up the Conan yeast experiences thread for the most comprehensive info on the yeast.

 

[g-star]

I also felt like I had very subdued aroma from a hopstand at flameout to 185F lasting 20mins.

The flash points of most of the essential oils we are trying to get into the beer are below 180F. Doing a long hop stand at these temperatures may add bitterness (as isomerization of alpha acids continues to a certain degree at these temps) but not much in the way of aroma. Your garage might smell great though.

Better results are obtained by adding the whirlpool hops (3oz+) once the wort has dropped to 170F and continue to chill rapidly. This strikes a balance between promotion of hydrocarbon/terpene (essential oil) solubility at elevated temps and reduction of losses via volatilization.

 

[NuclearRich]

The flash points of most of the essential oils we are trying to get into the beer are below 180F. Doing a long hop stand at these temperatures may add bitterness (as isomerization of alpha acids continues to a certain degree at these temps) but not much in the way of aroma. Your garage might smell great though.

Better results are obtained by adding the whirlpool hops (3oz+) once the wort has dropped to 170F and continue to chill rapidly. This strikes a balance between promotion of hydrocarbon/terpene (essential oil) solubility at elevated temps and reduction of losses via volatilization.

Although I understood the theory that you describe, I still ended up learning by example in my situation. I didnt control my temperature the way I meant to and ended up with a higher hop stand.

Everything you describe is certainly what we want here!

 

[CarbonTom]

Can some1 link to the most recent recipe? Page 49 is no where near post 933, and I am lost looking through the shuffle

 

[CarbonTom]

Heady Topper Clone Recipe Attempt 4 from http://www.signpostbrewing.com/heady-topper-clone-brew-4-0/

Batch Size: 5.00 gal

Boil Size: 6.47

11lb 4oz Pearl Malt (84.9%)- SRM 2.4
12 oz Caramalt (5.7%)- SRM 17
12 oz White Wheat (5.7%)- SRM 1.7
8 oz Turbinado Sugar (3.8%)- Added at flameout.
Mash at 150 degrees for 60 minutes.

Boil Time: 90 min

10.00 ml** *Hopshot- Boil 90.0 min- 117.8 IBUs
1.00 oz*** Simcoe[13.00 %] Boil 5.0 min-8.3 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo- Boil 5.0 min -4.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Boil 0.0 min – 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Boil 0.0 min -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus [14.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
1.00oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [12.50 %] Aroma Steep 30.0 min- 0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Columbus (Tomahawk) [14.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz** *Simcoe [13.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days -0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
1.00 oz** *Centennial [10.50 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs
0.50 oz** *Apollo [17.00 %] Dry Hop 8.0 Days-0.0 IBUs

Split dry hop in half and add half on day 14 and day 21. Carb on day 25.


Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.073 SG** *Measured Original Gravity: 1.073 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG** *Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.8 %** *Actual Alcohol by Vol: 8.5 %
Bitterness: 130.7 IBUs** *Calories: 249.4 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 6.4 SRM

http://www.signpostbrewing.com/heady-topper-clone-brew-4-0/

I know I decided on dry hop day to cut down the Columbus from 1.50 ounce to 1 ounce. I think I also replaced that half ounce with something else, but I can't remember. I remember going up to 0.75 ounces of something in dryhop 1, it was either Amarillo or Centennial. The 2nd stage was 1 oz Simcoe, 0.5 Columbus, 0.5 Amarillo, 0.5 Centennial, and 0.25 Apollo though.

Found it! reposting to help others out. Anyways, I had my first HT tonight! A buddy of mine had it for about 3 weeks or so, so its not the freshest, but it was still great. I can see why there is a hype train. So naturally, I have to try out a clone. But being in Rhode Island HT is quite difficult to find so what is the consensus on a comparable yeast strain since I cant really culture my own?

 

[masonsjax]

http://www.theyeastbay.com/brewers-yeast-products/vermont-ale

That is Conan, banked and manufactured by White Labs.

 

[CarbonTom]

Oh wow, im a moron. Thanks!

 

[CarbonTom]

What hops could I sub out the hop shot with? How much? I would like to make this this weekend and wouldn't be able to get it in time.

 

[sweetcell]

What hops could I sub out the hop shot with? How much? I would like to make this this weekend and wouldn't be able to get it in time.

you can use just about any clean bittering hop: magnum, warrior, apollo, nugget... you could even use simcoe but that's an expensive way to go.

how much: will depend on the alpha acid % in whatever hops you buy. use enough to make up the IBUs. use brewing software or website to help you calculate this.

 

[CarbonTom]

Will tomahawk be an OK sub for Apollo (LHBS doesn't have) and Maris Otter ok sub for Pearl malt (same deal)?

Edit: punctuation...

 

[beeber]

CarbonTom, both subs sound good to me. In my first attempt I sub'd Columbus for Apollo and I thought the beer had too much Columbus character. Not that it was bad or anything, just noticible.

I was able to secure some Apollo for my second attempt. Apollo sure smells dank but it is a different dank than Columbus.

 

[CarbonTom]

Cool, thanks for the info. Looks like I will be brewing this weekend! If I get the yeast delivered in time that is.

 

[NuclearRich]

Will tomahawk be an OK sub for Apollo (LHBS doesn't have) and Maris Otter ok sub for Pearl malt (same deal)?

Edit: punctuation...

Tomahawk is a trade name. Same hops as colomubus as zeus. AKA CTZ. So that is an appropriate sub, as there is a boatload of CTZ in the recipe... however it may take it out of balance.
I would think Apollo has a slight amount of orange citrus compared to CTZ, so maybe replace the apollo with 50/50 centennial/CTZ? Just off the top of my head.

 

[mbbransc]

I brewed this Saturday and substituted Apollo for the HopShot.

 

[brewski09]

I would sub CTZ and some nugget to replace the Apollo. Maybe 3:1 CTZ:nugget?

For the hop shots, I would use CTZ as well. Rumor is that's what they are made from.


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[sweetcell]

For the hop shots, I would use CTZ as well. Rumor is that's what they are made from.

it doesn't matter what those hop shots are made from, because they are concentrated alpha acid. very little to no flavor. they could be made with Hallertau (it would just take a sh*t-ton of them), the flavor contribution would be the same: none.

 

[ianmatth]

Will tomahawk be an OK sub for Apollo (LHBS doesn't have) and Maris Otter ok sub for Pearl malt (same deal)?

Edit: punctuation...

I think CTZ will be a fine sub for Apollo in the boil, but I would advise getting some Apollo for the dry hop additions if you really want the Heady taste. 50% Golden Promise/50% 2-row is a great substitute for Pearl. I used that for a couple of HT clones that turned out great. I also used a combination of CTZ and Apollo for the 90 minute addition every time I did this clone. The flavor is going to come from the late addition and dry hops more than anything.

 

[FreddyMar3]

Just tasted my first attempt at the clone. Amazing flavor but ended up too sweet. I stupidly added additional turbinado in an attempt to get my abv/og up bc of mashtun size restrictions, not thinking that it would add a bunch more sweetness. I've never looked into turbinado but I'm it must have more unfermentables than corn sugar. next time I am just going to do this on the 10 gal system.

 

[TrickyDick]

Just tasted my first attempt at the clone. Amazing flavor but ended up too sweet. I stupidly added additional turbinado in an attempt to get my abv/og up bc of mashtun size restrictions, not thinking that it would add a bunch more sweetness. I've never looked into turbinado but I'm it must have more unfermentables than corn sugar. next time I am just going to do this on the 10 gal system.

Surprised. Turbinado should be 100% fermentable. WOndering if it could be underpitched or more non-viable yeast in your pitch than you were aware of.

I'm planning to add more Turbinado as well. I used 1lb + 5.3oz in an 11 gallon batch, planning to add the rest of the second pound package in the primary at high krausen. My OG was only 1.069 and I'd like to hit my target as well, though I think a measly 2/3 pound wont add more than a point and half, maybe 2. I'm not sure what happened, I usually always hit my numbers. I think my mash pH was unusually higher than normal.

What was your FG?

TD

 

[BeerGrylls]

Surprised. Turbinado should be 100% fermentable. WOndering if it could be underpitched or more non-viable yeast in your pitch than you were aware of.

I'm planning to add more Turbinado as well. I used 1lb + 5.3oz in an 11 gallon batch, planning to add the rest of the second pound package in the primary at high krausen. My OG was only 1.069 and I'd like to hit my target as well, though I think a measly 2/3 pound wont add more than a point and half, maybe 2. I'm not sure what happened, I usually always hit my numbers. I think my mash pH was unusually higher than normal.

What was your FG?

TD

Turbinado as a fermentable leaves a sweet taste even after vigorous fermentation. There are flavor compounds in it that don't ferment out. That's the point - otherwise we'd use dextrose or sucrose instead.

 

[FreddyMar3]

Turbinado as a fermentable leaves a sweet taste even after vigorous fermentation. There are flavor compounds in it that don't ferment out. That's the point - otherwise we'd use dextrose or sucrose instead.

That describes exactly what I was tasting. My yeast pitch was slightly above the suggested amount and I got a VERY vigorous fermentation. Actually ended up fermenting a bit too hot bc the Conan is so damn active and I was lazy on temp control.

Will adjust next time.

 

[CarbonTom]

Ended up buying the correct stuff online since my yeast wont be here until next week, so no subs! Horay. Now I need to find something else to brew on saturday.

 

[NervousDad]

I added my turbinado after 24 hrs of fermentation. It attenuated very well.

 

[FreddyMar3]

I didn't really have a problem with attenuation. It just tasted sweet but my gravity reading was actually slightly below target. If I had added the appropriate amt or subbed corn sugar for the extra i'm sure it would have not been a problem.

 

[BeerGrylls]

I've made this statement in the thread before, but it's related to this. I found the amount of turbinado in the recipe to smack a little too much in the finished product. I personally will be reducing the amount by about half and replacing it with dextrose next time I brew it. Your mileage may vary.

 

[TrickyDick]

Good to know. I was planning another addition to the primary tomorrow, 2/3 lb, to boost the OG up a few points as I am apparently 4 points shy of target. I think my mash pH was to blame which I found to be rather odd. regardless, I think I'll use dextrose instead and maybe bump to a pound after your suggestion. This is my first time using Turbinado. I had assumed it was entirely fermentable without any lingering sweetness but maybe some candi sugar type flavors. Also first time using that hop resin. weird stuff

TD

 

[FreddyMar3]

I've made this statement in the thread before, but it's related to this. I found the amount of turbinado in the recipe to smack a little too much in the finished product. I personally will be reducing the amount by about half and replacing it with dextrose next time I brew it. Your mileage may vary.

Good to know. I will try that next time. A little more research and I probably would've stumbled across that. Oh well! Still a tasty brew.

 

[BeerGrylls]

Good to know. I will try that next time. A little more research and I probably would've stumbled across that. Oh well! Still a tasty brew.

Well, disclosure is that some people disagreed with me. The flavor I picked up in my clone had more of that 'Lagunitas Brown Shugga' taste than real heady did. However, I'm pretty sensitive to sugar. That's why I mentioned that your mileage may vary.

 

[CarbonTom]

Since its a blend, has anyone had ill effects with starters of the yeast bays conan yeast? Higher OG leads me to want to make a starter, but I dont want to throw it out of balance.

 

[Beezer94]

Since its a blend, has anyone had ill effects with starters of the yeast bays conan yeast? Higher OG leads me to want to make a starter, but I dont want to throw it out of balance.

The Vermont Ale is not a blend...

 

[CarbonTom]

Oh maybe the verbiage on the vial is just a generic thing for all their yeasts. That answers my question then. Thanks!

 

[sweetcell]

The Vermont Ale is not a blend...

maybe he got the Funktown?

"Funktown Pale Ale is a blend of our Vermont Ale strain and a unique strain of Brettanomyces that is well suited for primary fermentation."

sounds like an awesome combo, but won't get you to a heady clone...

 

[CarbonTom]

Nope I got the Vermont Ale yeast : http://www.theyeastbay.com/brewers-yeast-products/vermont-ale

You can see the warning at the bottom of the label. Oh well. A starter it is tomorrow evening!

 

[Coff]

Nope I got the Vermont Ale yeast : http://www.theyeastbay.com/brewers-yeast-products/vermont-ale

You can see the warning at the bottom of the label. Oh well. A starter it is tomorrow evening!

Its generic wording on all the vials, it just says that you should not create a starter for vials that are blends. The sentence before says a start can be made if the vial is old.

We all know the # cells in these vials are too low for most beers, so a starter is almost always necessary unless its like a 1.030 beer.

 

[masonsjax]

I believe the guy from yeast bay mentioned on another forum that he even recommends starters for some of the blends (specifically funktown in that post) and that it would change the ratios a bit, but not enough to make a huge difference.

 

[natasatan]

Don't know if this has been brought up yet, but Mark and Tess Szamatulski who wrote Beer Captured and Clone Brews have come up with a Heady Topper clone. They own my LHBS and I will be going there tomorrow to pick up the clone.


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[NuclearRich]

Good to know. I was planning another addition to the primary tomorrow, 2/3 lb, to boost the OG up a few points as I am apparently 4 points shy of target. I think my mash pH was to blame which I found to be rather odd. regardless, I think I'll use dextrose instead and maybe bump to a pound after your suggestion. This is my first time using Turbinado. I had assumed it was entirely fermentable without any lingering sweetness but maybe some candi sugar type flavors. Also first time using that hop resin. weird stuff

TD

Are you sure it was pH that affected your gravity? What was your pH? I'd think it would be more likely that it was a less than expected efficiency issue from other factors such as grain grush, mash thickness, high gravity mash (they tend to have a more poor extraction IME). I'd be more curious to see how your pH affects your hop flavor.