Heady Topper- Can you clone it?

[IslandLizard]

Thanks! Yup I am adding Calcium Chloride as well. I use Bru'nWater. Unless I am missing something, the Gypsum additions are so monstrous (people are talking here of ~20g for 6 Gallons) that adding the full amount will actually make the mash PH too low according to Bru'nWater. So I think I will just add enough Gypsum to lower Mash PH to what I need, and then add any extra (if I have the nerve) the the kettle.

Also -- I think this is because I am starting out with Distilled. It's possible reg water might be able to handle all the Gypsum and still require a bit of Acid. With distilled water the full amount of Gypsum puts the PH into the 4s.

I just read that, 20gr/6 gallons does sound monstrous! But if that's indeed what it takes to get closer to a HT, then so be it.

You're right, don't add all of it to the mash, just enough to get to the correct mash pH, then the rest to the boil kettle. For the latter, I would dissolve it in some cold/luke warm water/wort first, then add. Or add even less to the mash, say up to 100-200 ppm, plus some acid, if needed, to get to your mash pH.

I haven't read the whole thread or even most of the last few 400 posts, but I'm thinking wouldn't it be better to add the balance of that huge dose of gypsum to the chilled wort instead of boiling it for an hour?

 

[TheHairyHop]

adding a solid to a liquid is much easier when hot. you'd have to perhaps pre-dissolve it

 

[cheesebach]

adding a solid to a liquid is much easier when hot. you'd have to perhaps pre-dissolve it

IIRC, gypsum actually dissolves more easily in cool water. I’ve never attempted to add it directly to wort though. Pre-fermentation you could probably add it right in stir it up since you want to oxygenate it anyways.

 

[cheesebach]

Also, 20 grams seems extreme to me - I think people got carried away when there was a photo of a brew sheet that got out that showed 750ppm hardness. People started assuming this was their treated water target, but it’s more likely to be the targeted concentration for the finished beer. Something around 250-300ppm seems like a more reasonable target for the contribution from the water additions.

 

[TheHairyHop]

haha really? damn. always surprised by chemical reactions

 

[jerkbag]

I just read that, 20gr/6 gallons does sound monstrous! But if that's indeed what it takes to get closer to a HT, then so be it.

You're right, don't add all of it to the mash, just enough to get to the correct mash pH, then the rest to the boil kettle. For the latter, I would dissolve it in some cold/luke warm water/wort first, then add. Or add even less to the mash, say up to 100-200 ppm, plus some acid, if needed, to get to your mash pH.

I haven't read the whole thread or even most of the last few 400 posts, but I'm thinking wouldn't it be better to add the balance of that huge dose of gypsum to the chilled wort instead of boiling it for an hour?

Yeah adding to chilled wort might be a good idea. In any case, I think I am just going to add enough Gypsum to get the mash PH without acid (which is still a ton) and then call it a day.

One question: when you treat your mash + sparge water, does your pre-boil wort end up with concentrated amounts of minerals? Or when the grain absorbs water does it absorb the minerals as well as they are dissolved?

i.e. does treating mash + sparge to certain ppm = pre-boil wort with same ppm?

 

[cheesebach]

Here's the link to a BYO article that has a really good analysis of the mineral profile of the brewing water and finished beer (including measurements for a Heady sample):

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3590-minerals-profile-in-the-glass

If you read through this, you'll see why targeting a 200-250ppm sulfate concentration for your brewing water for this beer (somewhere around 8g for a 5G batch) makes a lot more sense than using 20g and targeting 750ppm.

One question: when you treat your mash + sparge water, does your pre-boil wort end up with concentrated amounts of minerals? Or when the grain absorbs water does it absorb the minerals as well as they are dissolved?

i.e. does treating mash + sparge to certain ppm = pre-boil wort with same ppm?

The grain adds much higher amounts of minerals than it absorbs - there's no accurate method for predicting the amount of minerals added by the grain that end up in the pre-boiled wort that I'm aware of, though you can get a rough idea from the same article I linked above. Most water profiles you see are for the water, not the wort though, so you can generally take a recommended profile for the style of beer you're brewing and make adjustments on future brews based on the result. I've also had good results adding NaCl post fermentation to round out an amber I brewed that was a little too dry/bitter.

 

[jerkbag]

Here's the link to a BYO article that has a really good analysis of the mineral profile of the brewing water and finished beer (including measurements for a Heady sample):

https://byo.com/stories/issue/item/3590-minerals-profile-in-the-glass

If you read through this, you'll see why targeting a 200-250ppm sulfate concentration for your brewing water for this beer (somewhere around 8g for a 5G batch) makes a lot more sense than using 20g and targeting 750ppm.



The grain adds much higher amounts of minerals than it absorbs - there's no accurate method for predicting the amount of minerals added by the grain that end up in the pre-boiled wort that I'm aware of, though you can get a rough idea from the same article I linked above. Most water profiles you see are for the water, not the wort though, so you can generally take a recommended profile for the style of beer you're brewing and make adjustments on future brews based on the result. I've also had good results adding NaCl post fermentation to round out an amber I brewed that was a little too dry/bitter.

Thanks -- that link is a great resource. I think I'll go for a more normal ~200 ppm IPA-type sulfate for this first crack at it and take it from there.

 

[IslandLizard]

Yeah adding to chilled wort might be a good idea. In any case, I think I am just going to add enough Gypsum to get the mash PH without acid (which is still a ton) and then call it a day.

One question: when you treat your mash + sparge water, does your pre-boil wort end up with concentrated amounts of minerals? Or when the grain absorbs water does it absorb the minerals as well as they are dissolved?

i.e. does treating mash + sparge to certain ppm = pre-boil wort with same ppm?

Or aim for a 200-250 ppm addition total in the boil. You can always add more to a glass of beer after pouring, if you want to experiment with what it does to your palate. Make a small bit of gypsum solution and use a dropper/pipet.

Good sparging and lautering should rinse out most of the sugars and minerals from the grist, so they'll all end up in your kettle, except for a small amount that remains trapped in the wet grains.

The grist also adds some minerals of its own, such as Ca, Mg, Cl, SO4, PO4, oxalates, etc. They get rinsed out the same way, and end up in the kettle, again, with a little left behind in the wet grains.

Yes, since we use ppm, everything remains proportional. Now you could treat your sparge water with different mineral rates from the mash water if you want, it just makes calculations a little more complex, but you should know quite well how much ends up in your wort and beer eventually.

Now the boil changes ratios, not only does it concentrate the sugars, it also concentrates the minerals at the same rate. So 200 ppm preboil may end up as 220-240 ppm in the fermentor, depending on how much water has boiled off (e.g., 10-20%).

 

[braindead]

Planning on brewing this at weekend.
Just not to sure about water additions as I want it spot on.
Anyone recommend what additions I should add please as i`m not to sure about bru n water
thanks

Ive attached my water profile.
Shooting for a Ph of around 5.2

 

[braindead]

Brewing this tomorrow
Any advice in regards to water
Full water report is in previous post
PH 7.4
Hardness 38.5
Aka 18.1
Calc 11.3

 

[jpakstis]

I made this this weekend; well the Farmhouse Brewing kit that is based off of this thread. The kit is great! It lays out everything to make the brew day nice and efficient. However, I had a question about the yeast. The kit comes with a package of liquid Omega Yeast DIPA. I usually like to make a 1L starter on a stirplate prior to my brew day, but I have been reading about how Alchemist likes to underpitch the yeast so I just pitched the slurry as-is. The yeast calculator says that a normal DIPA at 1.073 would need 250B cells but the Omega Yeast package has 150B.

Anyone else try it this way? Like I wrote, with my starter I might have close to 300B cells but I want the yeast to be stressed to produce the peach aroma that I love about HT. In the past, I would just make a big starter, pitch it and it would do its thing. I pitched it yesterday and have seen no signs of fermentation yet (the wort is at about 62 degrees). Normally its bubbling away by now, so I feel like I'm back to being a very beginner!

After the last few batches where I've been dialing in and locking down my brew day technique, I am finally turning my attention to yeast, fermentation temps, and minimizing oxygen and maximizing hop aroma and flavor.

 

[stickyfinger]

I made this this weekend; well the Farmhouse Brewing kit that is based off of this thread. The kit is great! It lays out everything to make the brew day nice and efficient. However, I had a question about the yeast. The kit comes with a package of liquid Omega Yeast DIPA. I usually like to make a 1L starter on a stirplate prior to my brew day, but I have been reading about how Alchemist likes to underpitch the yeast so I just pitched the slurry as-is. The yeast calculator says that a normal DIPA at 1.073 would need 250B cells but the Omega Yeast package has 150B.

Anyone else try it this way? Like I wrote, with my starter I might have close to 300B cells but I want the yeast to be stressed to produce the peach aroma that I love about HT. In the past, I would just make a big starter, pitch it and it would do its thing. I pitched it yesterday and have seen no signs of fermentation yet (the wort is at about 62 degrees). Normally its bubbling away by now, so I feel like I'm back to being a very beginner!

After the last few batches where I've been dialing in and locking down my brew day technique, I am finally turning my attention to yeast, fermentation temps, and minimizing oxygen and maximizing hop aroma and flavor.

that yeast can be finicky and leave a ton of sugars behind. my best attenuation came by keeping it at 68F throughout and then raising to 72F near the end.

 

[jpakstis]

Thanks! I’ll probably raise it up to 68 tonight when I get home.

 

[braindead]

I made it and used the Gigayeast GY054 Vermont. Started fermenting within minutes

 

[jpakstis]

Update: I got home and inched it up a few degrees. There was nothing indicating any fermentation beginning so I pitched a slurry of Conan I had harvested a few weeks ago from two cans of HT and this morning it was beginning to get moving.

 

[braindead]

Whats yours looking like at the moment. 3 days into fermentation and its definitely not a nice orange colour. More a dark honey/amber colour.
Not impressed, zero oxygen contact

 

[jpakstis]

I haven’t seen it since fermentation kicked off since we are traveling for Thanksgiving (hence my desire to get fermentation going early in the week). But it had a nice orange-y color prior and at the beginning of fermentation. But I’ve made NEIPAs before and they appeared pretty amber/honey-colored in the fermenter but came out that almost fluorescent orange color in the glass.

 

[braindead]

Ive made a few NEIPA also and looked way more orange and hazy. Little baffled why the first dry hop addition is on day 12. Usually hazy beers are added on day3ish for biofermentation

 

[jpakstis]

Tapped the keg on this on Saturday. Really great! I think its about 95% of HT. It was very orange and hazy.

 

[rideincircles]

I made my 2nd batch of this over the weekend, but had a few modifications based on my hop supply. I used the first page grain bill, but used apollo at 75 and 45, with some other hops at 15 minutes also. Not 100% to the recipe, but since my last recipe with hopshot did not achieve the bitterness required, I adjusted it to use what I have. The caramalt was replaced with crystal 10 since it was not listed at my brew store. Not 100% certain that was the right substitution.

I used the omega yeast with 2 packs and made a 3l starter. The hops I used were apollo, simcoe, amarillo, mosaic and el dorado. I added gypsum during the mash, but should have reread through the last few pages to add some to the acidified sparge water and boil kettle. I pitched yeast at 67 degrees and did not notice my temp controller was unplugged and it hit 74 degrees 24 hours later before getting it back to 67 degrees. Will see how it fares after that, but I am not too worried. My goal is 3 week turnaround for bluebonnet coming up and hope to improve on my last score. I have been lazy on doing brewing research, but will get back on the case this year. OG was 1.074 with about 10.5 gallons.

 

[anteater8]

Question about the grain bill: Since Pearl malt is so expensive, has anyone had luck with more common substitutes? Maybe half 2-row, half marris otter?

 

[gifty74]

How have these been turning out for those that currently have some on tap, and some to compare to the real thing? Is it spot on, as in blind triangle tests one is not able to be distinguished from the other?

 

[cheesebach]

I made a version of this recently with a few adjustments:

1) I didn't have access to hop extract locally, so i used warrior for bittering, targeting 105 IBUs (a bit under the estimated contribution from the hop shot in the OP). It was WAY too bitter. I'm guessing utilization of the hop shot isn't nearly as high as it claims to be, since I've never thought heady tasted more bitter than other DIPAs in the 8-9% ABV range. I'd probably target something closer to 70 IBUs from the bittering charge next time if using pellets instead of extract.

2) Followed a recommendation earlier in the thread of just combining all the hops into a single bag and mixing and then weighing out additions for flame out, whirlpool, and dry hop from the 15oz of combined hops. I had 5oz of simcoe (1/3rd total hops by weight), and thought it was too much simcoe compared to heady.

 

[gifty74]

I'm guessing utilization of the hop shot isn't nearly as high as it claims to be, since I've never thought heady tasted more bitter than other DIPAs in the 8-9% ABV range. I'd probably target something closer to 70 IBUs from the bittering charge next time if using pellets instead of extract.

Yeah, reading that 10ibu per 1ml, and then a loss of some utilization if you are above 1.050 OG. So estimate should probably be closer to 80-90 from the 10ml hop shot. Also depends on the AA% of the hop extract. I just ordered a can that is 61% AA.

Beersmith is estimating 70ibu in 5.5g batch of 1.075 OG wort, 60 min boil, with 12ml of the 61% hop extract. That and the fact that it's a smoother presentation of bitterness than pellets, makes sense that you feel it's way too bitter at 105 ibu estimate.

 

[cheesebach]

Yeah, reading that 10ibu per 1ml, and then a loss of some utilization if you are above 1.050 OG. So estimate should probably be closer to 80-90 from the 10ml hop shot. Also depends on the AA% of the hop extract. I just ordered a can that is 61% AA.

Beersmith is estimating 70ibu in 5.5g batch of 1.075 OG wort, 60 min boil, with 12ml of the 61% hop extract. That and the fact that it's a smoother presentation of bitterness than pellets, makes sense that you feel it's way too bitter at 105 ibu estimate.

Thanks for the input - it sounds like I maybe mistakenly assumed that the hop shot IBU calculation in the OP was being estimated in the same way as the bittering addition in my BS software. It looks like the OP IBU estimates are coming from beersmith or a similar software also though - maybe beersmith has been updated to more accurately predict the IBUs based on wort gravity since the OP was created? I didn't try putting in a 10ml hop shot in BS to see what it would give me, but I'll check that out when I get a chance.

I was a bit surprised by the result, since it looked as though I was targeting less bitterness to begin with (105 vs. 120 IBUs, and adding hops at flameout instead of a 5 min addition). Also, there were a few posts in this thread that mentioned not achieving enough bitterness when using a clean bittering hop like magnum/warrior in place of the hop shot.

 

[cheesebach]

Yep - just tried a 10ml 60%AA hop shot 90 min boil addition in beersmith with this grainbill, and it's estimated at just under 60 IBUs. Only half of the estimate from the same addition in the OP. That explains a lot...

 

[Tricerahops220]

fwiw, I've done this recipe numerous times and a quick check of my BS2 files shows 1.073 and 1.015 estimates for OG/FG with a resulting ABV of 7.7%...

Cheers!

What was the final verdict on the recipe? Which one was the final one?

 

[stickyfinger]

does anyone else hate the flavor of Pearl malt? I’ve made 5 IPAs with it now, and it tastes kind of iodiney to me. maybe i have a bad lot

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Here's a question: Why would you want to clone Heady Topper?
I mean, it's a fine beer, but unless you think that Heady is the greatest thing ever and want a beer exactly like it, why not just learn how to make a good NEIPA of your own and customize it to your taste?

My favorite NEIPA is Treehouse's Julius, and I used that as the basis for building my NEIPA recipe, but once I got "close enough", I started tweaking to my own taste to make something I actually like better.