Head-to-Head: 3 vessel and BIAB

[TexasWine]

Sounds like a fun comparison.

I suppose the debate prior to doing this was, do we target the same OG and IBU with differing grain bills or take the same grain bill and allow for the differing efficiencies in the end results.

What were the two SG of the batches? Will this have a big impact on the final tastes do you think?

Might be worth repeating targeting a specific OG and IBU.

When do you anticipate the tasting

I don't know that we ever discussed adjusting the recipe for our different efficiencies. We just knew we'd be different in that regard and just rolled with it.

Bud's OG was 1.048, mine was 1.055.

And yes, I agree it might be worth repeating and adjusting the recipe. It'd be more of an apples to apples comparison between the final product.

Tasting will be early March.

 

[Gavin C]

I don't know that we ever discussed adjusting the recipe for our different efficiencies. We just knew we'd be different in that regard and just rolled with it.

Bud's OG was 1.048, mine was 1.055.

And yes, I agree it might be worth repeating and adjusting the recipe. It'd be more of an apples to apples comparison between the final product.

Tasting will be early March.

What OG did the recipe call for? Or was it unspecified?

 

[atmfuge]

I did BIAB and now AG with a 10 gal cooler MLT. I switched becasue I was getting really poor efficiency comparatively (63% vs 75%). I'm pretty sure the difference for me was a combination of grain crush and having a rather clunky BIAB setup. What do you think accounts for the large difference in your efficiencies?

 

[TexasWine]

What OG did the recipe call for? Or was it unspecified?

Well, according to Real Ale's website, their OG is 12 Plato, or 1.048. I suppose you could have called that the target. To mimic their ABV, a final gravity of 1.009 would also be required.

We were supposed to mash at the same temp of 148F. I hit it, but he was high at 151F. Shouldn't make a huge difference though.

 

[TexasWine]

A quick update. My buddy went to seconday after 5 days in. Mine stayed in primary the entire duration.

We both kegged yesterday. Sitting at 17 psi and 34F.

Pictures of what went into the keg. My buddy's is first, next to the Fireman's #4.

Mine may be a touch darker. But it could be the lighting.

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[TexasWine]

I made a side by side of the beers as well.

It'd be a better comparison had they all three been sitting together.

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[RM-MN]

I made a side by side of the beers as well.

It'd be a better comparison had they all three been sitting together.

It would have been better yet had yours been in the same size/shape glass and had a white background too. I think the dark background makes your look much darker than it reallly is. You could take another picture of yours if you haven't drunk all of it. :cross:

 

[DurtyChemist]

I'm super impressed with your mash and later efficiency. I need to figure mine out. I'd say once you do this with adjustment so you both hit the same numbers it would be good for both of you to do a blind taste test.

 

[TexasWine]

I did BIAB and now AG with a 10 gal cooler MLT. I switched becasue I was getting really poor efficiency comparatively (63% vs 75%). I'm pretty sure the difference for me was a combination of grain crush and having a rather clunky BIAB setup. What do you think accounts for the large difference in your efficiencies?

Sorry, just rereading some posts and saw your Q.

My knee jerk thought is the crush has something to do with it. But then again I also think that a coarser crush just needs a little extra time in the mash (because of the bigger particle size) to extract the same amount of sugar.

In case you're interested, the gap on my mill was set at 0.025 and I did not double crush. Lately I've been crushing one pass at 0.035 or so and a second pass at 0.010. Wanted to see if I could back off that tight of a crush and still get good efficiencies. It worked.

We also bought our grain from the same place, at the same time, so that's not a difference either. One thing I don't know about his system is what kind of volume losses he's seeing in the various steps.

So bottom line, I don't know for certain why our efficiencies are so different. But we're both making beer at the end of the day. Mine will just have more alcohol!

 

[TexasWine]

One minor update; names for our beers!

Coworker: Friarman's Floor

Me: Love is Blonde

The only inspiration I drew on was the proximity of Valentine's day and the color of the beer.

 

[hio3791]

With all due respect, what did this experiment prove? For being Process Engineers, there are so many variables that this proves nothing more than 2 friends making the same recipe, with totally different process, ending with 2 different beers and one finishing in half the time.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool but it's not an experiment that proves anything between 3-vessel and Biab.

 

[RM-MN]

With all due respect, what did this experiment prove? For being Process Engineers, there are so many variables that this proves nothing more than 2 friends making the same recipe, with totally different process, ending with 2 different beers and one finishing in half the time.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool but it's not an experiment that proves anything between 3-vessel and Biab.

It looks to me like it proves you can get clear beer without worrying about getting clear wort into the fermenter and that you don't need to use a full day to make a decent batch of beer. If there was a decent 3 way blind test it would tell a bit more.

 

[hio3791]

It looks to me like it proves you can get clear beer without worrying about getting clear wort into the fermenter and that you don't need to use a full day to make a decent batch of beer. If there was a decent 3 way blind test it would tell a bit more.

I did say it proved that one finished in half the time. And I don't believe anyone has ever said BIAB makes an inferior beer compared to 3 vessel because BIAB allows a quicker method to mashing.

It does show that BIAB can make clear beer. Within the scope of this excercise, it would've been interesting to judge each beer independently by a qualified panel but other than proving that both methods can make good beer, which no one else has doubted, it doesn't prove anything.

I admit that I'm nitpicking the pretense of the original post.

 

[TexasWine]

Maybe I should change the title of the post? You're not the first to point out there are a lot of variables we didn't hold constant. But we never intended for this to be an experiment where at the end we could point to one difference in our processes and say it did or did not make a difference in the final product.

However, our intent was to compare our overall processes. My coworker thinks some of the things I do are crazy. I say some of his are a waste of time. So, that conversation birthed this head to head brew off.

So, I think the way you've summarized it is exactly right. Two friends, poking fun at each other, a little friendly competition, and we'll see who gets the bragging rights of making the better beer in the end. Maybe we'll even make an ugly trophy.

 

[hio3791]

Thank you TexasWine. I concede and I thank you for sharing your findings with the community.

 

[misterkidd]

Subbed

 

[misterkidd]

Any update on this little beauty?

 

[watermelon83]

With all due respect, what did this experiment prove? For being Process Engineers, there are so many variables that this proves nothing more than 2 friends making the same recipe, with totally different process, ending with 2 different beers and one finishing in half the time.

Don't get me wrong, it's cool but it's not an experiment that proves anything between 3-vessel and Biab.

In the industry I work in Process Engineers do not have to hold any engineering degree. Not that it matters, but I don't read to far into the title.

 

[TexasWine]

Any update on this little beauty?

You're right. An update is due!

We did the tasting this past Thursday. It was kind of a happy hour thing. Engineers from our group at work were in attendance as well as a few other folks that were non-work friends of my co-worker. The non-work friends happened to know a few things about beer. We had 14 folks voting.

We took a rather simple approach to the voting. Each person got a sheet of paper where the ranked the beers, 1 being the favorite, 3 the least favorite. 1 point for first, 2 points for second, 3 points for third. The least number of points wins, and so on and so forth.

Survey says.....

The commercial Real Ale was 1st
And it was an even split between myself and my co-worker.

It was interesting to see how the votes were distributed.

Real Ale
1st place: 6 votes
2nd place: 4 votes
3rd place: 4 votes

Me
1st place: 5 votes
2nd place: 3 votes
3rd place: 6 votes

Co-worker
1st place: 3 votes
2nd place: 7 votes
3rd place: 4 votes

As you can see, folks either liked my beer the most or the least. My co-worker consistently got voted second.

Several people noted that my beer was a bit hoppier than the others. Also, both my and the co-worker's beers were more carbonated than Real Ale's. If I were to do it over I would adjust my hop additions to account for the no chill method and reduce the volumes of CO2.

That's about all I've got time to type for tonight. I'll upload some pictures sometime this weekend.

 

[TexasWine]

A few pictures from the night's festivities. The first is me (on the right) and my coworker. The second is some of the voters. The third is me with the person who really pulled all this together (my wife). She made some pretty amazing appetizers.

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[TexasWine]

I almost forgot to mention the highlight of the night. My coworker and I did our own tasting before anyone else. The results of that were interesting.

I ranked Real Ale first, myself second, coworker third.

But the kicker was my coworker ranked them in the same order! His own beer was his least favorite. He was taken aback a bit and repeated another blind taste test later in the night, only to rank them in the exact same order.

It was all a lot of fun and I hope we get to do it again sometime soon.

 

[Slow_Day]

Maybe one thing that this comparison points out is that the technique one uses might not be as important as knowing how to control a technique to achieve an outcome.

This is something that separates exceptional brewers from the rest of us.

Thanks for sharing this.

 

[Gavin C]

Great update. Thanks for sharing the pictures. So that is you in your avatar after all. Thought it might have been a Bond Villian I could not quite place. The beers all look really bright. Looks like a fun night.

 

[TexasWine]

Thought you folks might enjoy a fun little update. My coworker has entered his beer into four or five competitions since the tasting. In every one he's placed in the top three in the light hybrid category. I'm super excited for him, and he tells me that by association I'm getting those rankings too

Next up is Lunar Rendebrew and I'll be throwing my beer into the fray for a grand finale. My keg kicked several weeks ago, but I intentionally set aside three bottles just for this competition. It'll be fun to get some official feedback and see who's beer comes out on top.