Head scratching

[jambop]

Hi again
I am just getting me thoughts together on my first brew after a long time off. I do not really have the equipment to do a full brew but I do have two kettles available. One at 11L and the other at 8L . So my recipe calls for a total grain bill of 2.8 kg and I have read in a brewing book by John Palmer that the min ration for water to grain is lL/500g which then equates to 1.325L . My thought is to try and mash in the small kettle and then use the big one to dunk the grains into to batch sparge. The volume of the mash would by math be about 7.2L which is getting on the limit of the kettle. So question is would this be the best method to do the job assuming the author of the article is correct and also my math ?

 

[marc1]

Hi again
I am just getting me thoughts together on my first brew after a long time off. I do not really have the equipment to do a full brew but I do have two kettles available. One at 11L and the other at 8L . So my recipe calls for a total grain bill of 2.8 kg and I have read in a brewing book by John Palmer that the min ration for water to grain is lL/500g which then equates to 1.325L . My thought is to try and mash in the small kettle and then use the big one to dunk the grains into to batch sparge. The volume of the mash would by math be about 7.2L which is getting on the limit of the kettle. So question is would this be the best method to do the job assuming the author of the article is correct and also my math ?

Sounds like this is a BIAB?

I'd mash in the big kettle with a thinner mash and dunk sparge in the smaller one.

Check out Can I Mash It at the bottom here:
http://kotmf.com/tools/mash.php

 

[DBhomebrew]

Yeah, mash in the big kettle. Sparge in a bucket if you've got one. Room temp is A-OK.

Figuring your water split so each running is about equal will give best efficiency. 40:60, 50:50, 60:40. That's equal runnings, not equal water inputs.

 

[jambop]

Yeah, mash in the big kettle. Sparge in a bucket if you've got one. Room temp is A-OK.

Figuring your water split so each running is about equal will give best efficiency. 40:60, 50:50, 60:40. That's equal runnings, not equal water inputs.

You will have to explain that a bit about ratios is that the volume of wort you expect to run off the initial mash and then the sparges ?

 

[jambop]

OK so total change of plan I have just scored a brilliant 35L SS boiler at a very good price so BIAB it is for me. I have been thinking quite a bit about brew in a bag verses one of these moderately priced all in one brewing setups and to be honest I am really struggling to see where the difference is. With the Brew monk and Klarstein for example although the parts are made from SS as opposed to a fabric straining bag the principal is the same mash and sparge remove the bag or SS grain holder and proceed to boiling phase. I fully understand that the all in one is more controllable and temperature gradient mashing is possible with the all in one but it does come at a mighty price ... and a fastidious BIAB brewer could do the same with practice. I worked all my life in Bio- research and fallowing a method is quite normal for me so it is not something I would be uncomfortable with . Just an observation I don't know what the more experience brewers think. What ever way I at least now have a good sized kettle

 

[DBhomebrew]

You will have to explain that a bit about ratios

Nope, no explanation needed. You got it.

Edit: Ok, I've at least smelled my coffee now. Everything you can find about batch sparging will apply to BIAB dunk sparging.

Say you want a pre-boil volume of 10 liters. For a ratio of 50:50, you'll want 5L to come from the mash and 5 from the sparge.

Some water will be absorbed and held by the grain bed. Say, a random 2L for 2Kg grain. You apply that to the mash volume because once it's absorbed it won't absorb more in sparge.

That leaves your volumes as...

Strike 7L
Sparge 5L
Loss to grain absorption 1L/Kg
Lauter efficiency is 10 out of the 12L into the boil or 83%.
Say you get 95% conversion, that'll be 79% mash efficiency.

 

[RM-MN]

I have just scored a brilliant 35L SS boiler at a very good price so BIAB it is for me.

Please note that with full volume, no sparge batches you may be limited to a batch size slightly less than 5 gallons to avoid overflowing your pot. This will be especially relevant if you brew "big beers" or if your brewhouse efficiency is low. Adding a sparge step gets around these limitations.

Be aware that with the 5 gallon batches it is possible for the wort to boil over as the foam builds up when approaching the boil. Turning the heat down helps as does whisking the foam away.

 

[soccerdad]

there is a You Tube brewer (David Heath) who almost exclusively uses AIO systems (Grainfather specifically) and he always stirs the hot break foam back into the boil. I would say it's worth watching a few of his videos as he often includes tried and true recipes.

 

[DBhomebrew]

You have a kettle, a bag is very inexpensive. It's a great way to get into brewing. Invest now in the cold side, fermentation temp control. It'll make better beer, the AIO will only make it more convenient.

 

[RM-MN]

there is a You Tube brewer (David Heath) who almost exclusively uses AIO systems (Grainfather specifically) and he always stirs the hot break foam back into the boil. I would say it's worth watching a few of his videos as he often includes tried and true recipes.

I've started doing that on every batch as I may start the boil with the wort only half an inch below the rim of the kettle. Starting that close to the rim isn't something I recommend to everyone though.

 

[DBhomebrew]

I've started doing that on every batch as I may start the boil with the wort only half an inch below the rim of the kettle. Starting that close to the rim isn't something I recommend to everyone though.

That's how I roll, too. FWH do a great job at giving an extra moment to get the heat down. Still a bit hairy, but I get 4G out of a 5G kettle.

 

[jambop]

Please note that with full volume, no sparge batches you may be limited to a batch size slightly less than 5 gallons to avoid overflowing your pot. This will be especially relevant if you brew "big beers" or if your brewhouse efficiency is low. Adding a sparge step gets around these limitations.

Be aware that with the 5 gallon batches it is possible for the wort to boil over as the foam builds up when approaching the boil. Turning the heat down helps as does whisking the foam away.

Hi I am not fully understanding that at all 5 uk gallons is approx 23L I have just remeasured my kettle and it is actually a little larger volume than I thought at 38 L but even at 35L would that not be enough volume to brew 23L . I intend making normal British style beers abv c 4.5% generally requiring about 5Kg of grain.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Typical recommendation is a kettle 2-3 times your batch volume. That's for a full volume mash and will allow for imperial gravities.

If you're not interested in imperial gravities and you add a sparge step, you can get by with less volume.

With no sparge, you have to fit your batch volume + boil off volume + grain absorption + the volume of the grain itself.

Add a sparge, you can reserve up to ~60% of your preboil volume from the above. Once you remove the grain and the water absorbed in it there's plenty of room to add the rest of the water. Bonus, the sparge adds ~8% mash efficiency which requires less grain, less water to be absorbed.

Then you get to the boil and if you're the type who stands by the kettle with your eye on it the entire time you can push things like @RM-MN and I do. If your attention is split and the boil starts when you're not looking it can be a big mess. BIG MESS.

With my 5G kettle, I can output 3.75G into the fermenter at 1.095. But it sure is nerve-wracking!

 

[RM-MN]

Hi I am not fully understanding that at all 5 uk gallons is approx 23L I have just remeasured my kettle and it is actually a little larger volume than I thought at 38 L but even at 35L would that not be enough volume to brew 23L . I intend making normal British style beers abv c 4.5% generally requiring about 5Kg of grain.

I intended to brew beers of 5 to 5.5% alcohol but sometime....just maybe...I'll want to brew something with more alcohol, like a barleywine. I'd need to start with all the water to make the beer, plus the water that would be absorbed by the grain, plus the water that will be boiled off. Add to that the space that the grain itself requires and suddenly your kettle looks a bit small. Supposing you manage through sparging to get to your intended preboil of the 23 liters plust the about 4 liters you will boil off and you have about 10 liters of space above the wort..which seems like a lot until the foam starts to build up and look like it will spill over.

 

[marc1]

I intended to brew beers of 5 to 5.5% alcohol but sometime....just maybe...I'll want to brew something with more alcohol, like a barleywine. I'd need to start with all the water to make the beer, plus the water that would be absorbed by the grain, plus the water that will be boiled off. Add to that the space that the grain itself requires and suddenly your kettle looks a bit small. Supposing you manage through sparging to get to your intended preboil of the 23 liters plust the about 4 liters you will boil off and you have about 10 liters of space above the wort..which seems like a lot until the foam starts to build up and look like it will spill over.

A few drops of antifoam, like Fermcap, can help prevent boil overs as well.

 

[eric19312]

That's how I roll, too. FWH do a great job at giving an extra moment to get the heat down. Still a bit hairy, but I get 4G out of a 5G kettle.

View attachment 754617

The BK boil looks so very familiar. I've been doing this for many many batches. If you are also doing this I recommend FermCap S or Five Star Kettle Defoamer 105. A few drops into the foam as it starts to rise and careful attention to heat and some stirring and I avoided boil over about 90% of the time. That was boiling 20+ gallons in a nominal 20 gallon Spike kettle (calculated volume 22.8 gallon) on a banjo burner. Not sure I'd take the same risk on my kitchen stove like you are doing there...

I think I permanently solved the problem with a Christmas gift to myself of a 30 gallon kettle (nominal 30, calculated 31.8). Brewing this weekend and looking forward to letting her rip...

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Hmmm 35L is about 36 quarts so 9 gallons... you have just enough capacity to do a 5+ gallon batch if you watch the boil during the foaming stage. With BIAB, maybe mash in 5 gallons, lose a little in the bag, sparge in a bucket or large cooking pot with 2-1/2 gallons and squeeze the bag good, then add the sparge to the main mash for a roughly 6.5 gallon boil, boil off a gallon roughly, and have 5.5 gallon wort. You can then if desired can a quart of it for starter base for your next batch, and have some you can lose to the trub layer in the fermenter. Your standard corny keg will be absolutely full at about 5.5 gallons or a hair less. A 5 gallon to 5.25 gallon fill works nicely if you purge the keg with CO2 first so you aren't kegging on air. I think with your new kettle you are definitely good to go, in much better shape than before. A very smart acquisition. Pat yourself on the back and get brewing!

BTW next batch allow for the volume of the starter if you don't want to bottle any. In fact, your first batch, too, if you make a starter from scratch. If you just use liquid yeast, or rehydrate, or use dry yeast, not an issue, but I like using a starter.

 

[MaxStout]

I do the 2-kettle no-sparge BIAB thing when brewing full batches indoors on the stove. I mash with about 5.5-6 gallons strike water in an 8 gal kettle, with a couple more gallons heated in a separate 3 gallon kettle. Mashout, then pour the other water directly into the kettle and bring to a boil.

I used to do pour-over sparges, but that oversparged a few times, giving me astringent beers. Wasn't worth it for me just to glean another gravity point or two. So now I just add the water, as I get most of the wort out of the bag by draining and some light squeezing.

 

[jambop]

A few drops of antifoam, like Fermcap, can help prevent boil overs as well.

I defo will not be making any of that sort of beer... I am trying to get away from it I cannot understand why anybody wants to dink beer that is near wine strength at all . I want to get back to drinking session beers where the ABV is 3.8 to 4.2 and I can drink two or even three litres instead of 750cl at ridiculous strength .

 

[DBhomebrew]

boil off a gallon roughly

That would take me over four hours!

 

[jambop]

That would take me over four hours!

This is what I am trying hard to understand the very high boil off rates. Is this to reduce volume and thus increase gravity? If so it is bordering on past the laws of diminishing returns. I don't know where various people on this site live BUT in Europe the cost of energy is going through the roof why would you deliberately try to increase your rate of fermentables by creating the need for a high boil off ? Surely better to try and keep the boil volume as low as possible and augment with a bit of concentrate or sugar ? I regularly do one hour boils for food sterilisation in glass jars French style and if I lose between 1 and 2L over the hour it is about right now that is lid on take of the lid you may double that and a bit more but 5L I do not believe anybody can make beer that way with any sort of sense behind the process. Just my opinion though. I am just waiting for the price of beer to start to rocket in the UK wholesale energy prices have increased 400% over the last year... how do commercial brewers cope with that?

 

[DBhomebrew]

A lot of brewers boil hard. I keep a bare minimum (~.2G/hr) to help increase my brewhouse efficiency. There are probably reasons to boil hard, but there are at least as many not to. Search the forums for discussion on the topic by @mabrungard.

Edit: for example...

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...-question-and-observation.655882/post-8398058

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Well, a gallon or nearly a gallon boil-off is common for 5gal or bigger batches with 60 to 90 minute boils. At least that is my experience. As for commercial brewers, I really can't say what they do, exactly. The boil does a lot of things and reducing the volume is an outcome but not an objective. One is to get the hoppy out of the hops and into the wort. Another is maillard reactions that change or improve flavor and mouth feel. Still another is cooking off DMS precursors. Still another is "that is the way we always do it" LOL. When I don't know about something, I follow the herd. Going with the consensus means if it is wrong, at least I am in good company.

 

[jambop]

Well, a gallon or nearly a gallon boil-off is common for 5gal or bigger batches with 60 to 90 minute boils. At least that is my experience. As for commercial brewers, I really can't say what they do, exactly. The boil does a lot of things and reducing the volume is an outcome but not an objective. One is to get the hoppy out of the hops and into the wort. Another is maillard reactions that change or improve flavor and mouth feel. Still another is cooking off DMS precursors. Still another is "that is the way we always do it" LOL. When I don't know about something, I follow the herd. Going with the consensus means if it is wrong, at least I am in good company.

I really cannot say I just don't have the experience But my economic sense tells me when wholesale energy cost increase by 400% in a year something has to give. It would appear to me that to a homebrewer the energy cost of evaporating 4 to 5L is a considerable cost factor . What I would prefer if after my first mash if I cannot get an adequate gravity after a 60min rolling boil is on my second brew to use some sort of concentrate be that sugar or malt extract to boost the final gravity before I start boiling. My main concern is to try to produce a decent drop of beer I am not trying to win any prizes

 

[marc1]

I really cannot say I just don't have the experience But my economic sense tells me when wholesale energy cost increase by 400% in a year something has to give. It would appear to me that to a homebrewer the energy cost of evaporating 4 to 5L is a considerable cost factor . What I would prefer if after my first mash if I cannot get an adequate gravity after a 60min rolling boil is on my second brew to use some sort of concentrate be that sugar or malt extract to boost the final gravity before I start boiling. My main concern is to try to produce a decent drop of beer I am not trying to win any prizes

Once you get some experience, you can adjust your recipes for the efficiency that you see, and your actual boil off rate, so that you can get your target gravities without a lot of on the fly adjustment.

I boil off 2L or so over an hour. I use a gentle boil, with the lid on, and a condenser to remove the steam and unwanted volatiles from the wort.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

I really cannot say I just don't have the experience But my economic sense tells me when wholesale energy cost increase by 400% in a year something has to give. It would appear to me that to a homebrewer the energy cost of evaporating 4 to 5L is a considerable cost factor . What I would prefer if after my first mash if I cannot get an adequate gravity after a 60min rolling boil is on my second brew to use some sort of concentrate be that sugar or malt extract to boost the final gravity before I start boiling. My main concern is to try to produce a decent drop of beer I am not trying to win any prizes

Like I said, it is not about getting the desired gravity. That isn't why we boil.

 

[jambop]

Like I said, it is not about getting the desired gravity. That isn't why we boil.

Well I know that the hops have to be extracted etc but does that really necessitate boiling off such a large volume of water? Sixty minutes of boiling is sixty minutes of boiling. You could have that a gentle boil or a furious boil where there is a greater loss of volume, greater expenditure of energy for a very small increase sugar concentration resulting in slight increase boiling point which needs even more input to maintain the boil . I saw a brew recipe where the boil start volume was 6L more than the finish... what the hell was the guy using to heat the kettle to remove one litre of water as steam every 10 mins ??

 

[DBhomebrew]

That's pretty much the 'typical' 1-1.5 G/hr.

@jambop, trust your hunch and verify as I suggested above in post #22.

 

[GrowleyMonster]

Well I know that the hops have to be extracted etc but does that really necessitate boiling off such a large volume of water? Sixty minutes of boiling is sixty minutes of boiling. You could have that a gentle boil or a furious boil where there is a greater loss of volume, greater expenditure of energy for a very small increase sugar concentration resulting in slight increase boiling point which needs even more input to maintain the boil . I saw a brew recipe where the boil start volume was 6L more than the finish... what the hell was the guy using to heat the kettle to remove one litre of water as steam every 10 mins ??

Well, if you don't want to do it that way, then don't do it that way. If you ask, most of us will tell you how we do it ourselves because we know that it works.

If you are only looking for an answer that you want to hear, then just answer yourself and brew on. We can't read your mind so we really can't predict what answer will make you happy. Me, I boil for an hour, and a boil is a boil, not a simmer. My next batch will be a no-chill batch so I will boil for 90 minutes. I will probably lose a bit more than a gallon, That's okay, I will make allowances for that. You don't have to boil at all, if you don't want to. Or you can use a couple of sous vide wands to just barely pasteurize overnight at 130F or so if you like, covered so you recondense most of the evaporate. Whatever blows your skirt up. In the final analysis you have to decide what you want to drink and what you are willing to do to get it in the glass.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I just don't have the experience

Take a look at the link that @DBhomebrew mentioned in #22. A quote from the linked post: "The short answer is that we homebrewers are still stuck on where the Pro's were 40 years ago. Back then, the state of the art was to boil vigorously. Since then, the Pro's have learned more about what is needed to rid wort of DMS and that there are downsides to exposing the wort to too much thermal stress. "