Have you ever

[Jag75]

Not added lactic acid in your mash for your water profile. Using RO water . My profile I built is

50 cal
0 mag
35 sodium
61sulfate
64 chloride

.4g gypsum mash & .3g sparge
1g CaCI mash & .7g sparge

I'm getting a ph of 5.24 with only 1.2ml of lactic acid in sparge none in the mash.

Grain bill is 12# viking red active malt.

Am I over thinking this ?

 

[day_trippr]

That malt seems rather unique, tons of potential and DP yet tending towards a caramel - a red one at that - wrt color.

I'm a PA user, but the only brew that is close to no acid additions is my imperial stout. Lots of roast and black malts countering the base malt.

Any new recipe I plug it into Bru'n Water and see what falls out. Even starting with RO water I've never had a zero acid addition recipe...

Cheers!

 

[Jag75]

I use Brun water . That's the numbers it spit out. It's a beautiful color . Tried a red kolsch with this malt and it was awesome. I'm making an american dry hop red ale with it . I just found it odd that I got that low of a ph . Is it maybe Bru n water doesnt have the info of this malt in the program yet?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

You don't need acid in the sparge with RO water.

The DI mash pH for that malt is a max of 5.6.
https://www.vikingmalt.com/wp-conte...TS_VM_BREWERS_SPECIAL_RED_ACTIVE-ID-11481.pdf
Without a batch analysis, that's the closest info you're likely to get. So, the mash pH is likely to be in a reasonable range without acid (in the 5.5 to 5.6 range after salt additions) but would benefit from a little acid. It won't be 5.24. When you say you're getting 5.24, is that what a water calculator is giving you as a mash pH with no acid in the mash? It's not likely to be correct.

And yes, I often have beers that don't need acid in the mash. Typically if there's more than about 10% medium or darker crystal.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I use Brun water . That's the numbers it spit out.

That makes sense. I think Bru'n water uses (or used to; I haven't used it for a while) estimates pH based on grain type and colour. Different grain types at the same colour will affect the pH differently. If you've selected 'base malt' and set the colour to 30-40EBC (or equivalent lovibond), I suspect Bru'n water over estimates the acidity as that's outside the normal range for base malts. I'm not sure if you can override the DI pH on Bru'n water - I know you can on Mash Made Easy. Maybe @Silver_Is_Money can could give some help with it.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I don't know anything about this malt other than that it appears to hover at around 18 SRM and that what I'm assuming to be its "Wort pH" is listed at a maximum of 5.6 (with no nominal given, but with the nominal assuredly going to be somewhat less than the maximum).

I'm beginning to put pieces together (from sources including a Weyermann dissertation and some peer reviewed industry level papers) which indicate that mash pH and wort pH (for base malts) are not the same measure, and that for base malts (at least) they are separated by roughly 0.22 pH points. So if the nominal wort pH is 5.55 (being a bit down from the listed max. of 5.6), we might guess that a nominal mash (or DI_pH) is ballpark 5.33.

An 18 SRM Munich or Biscuit class malt in 'Mash Made Easy' defaults to a DI_pH of 5.36, which is in fair agreement with a speculative guess of 5.33. I can't speak for Bru'n Water. But any malt with an SRM in the neighborhood of 18 is not at all likely to be classified as a base malt.

Add calcium containing salts to mash and sparge water and the mash pH will drop, so mash pH should be lower than 5.33 to 5.36. There does not appear to be any need for acidification when using this malt straight up.

As an aside, your water profile does not exhibit a good cation/anion balance as listed above.

What is really needed here is to mash 50 grams of this crushed malt in 200 mL of DI water, and to measure the resulting pH at 20 degrees C. at 15 minutes into the mash. Only then will you know the mash pH (or nominal DI_pH). Then allow the mash to continue for 60-90 minutes, separate the wort from the grist, and take its pH again at 20 degrees C. to achieve what I'm presuming will be at this juncture its "Wort pH". Until then, all is speculation.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

mash pH and wort pH (for base malts) are not the same measure, and that for base malts (at least) they are separated by roughly 0.22 pH points. So if the nominal wart pH is 5.55 (being a bit down from the listed max. of 5.6), we might guess that a nominal mash (or DI_pH) is ballpark 5.33.

What is wort pH a measure of? Is it the pH of the malt in some standardised mash water or something similar? I thought malt analysis sheets listed DI mash pH (but I could be wrong)?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I feel compelled to inject at this juncture that I'm beginning to lean toward pH adjustment that is made post lautering and pre-boil for most beer recipes, rather than at the mash (or rather pre-mash) stage. There are far less variables to be juggled when taking this approach, as at this juncture the wort is divorced from the grist and the only remaining variables of concern are wort volume, wort SG, wort buffering factor, and wort pH. My research indicates that the ideal target pH for pre-boil Wort adjustment is 5.2 (though some sources say 5.0 to 5.2).

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What is wort pH a measure of? Is it the pH of the malt in some standardised mash water or something similar? I thought malt analysis sheets listed DI mash pH (but I could be wrong)?

That's the million dollar question. pH rises during the mash, and my best understanding (from albeit limited peer reviewed industry level sources, combined with a single Weyermann presentation) is that wort pH is the pH as measured post all stages of lautering and immediately pre-boil, and that its measure is in compliance with EBC standard 8.17. That means it is to be measured at 20 degrees C.

In all of my searching there is simply no EBC or ASBC industry standard that has been established for the measurement of what home brewers refer to as "mash pH" (which to me indicates that "mash pH is of little to perhaps verging upon no concern to the major industry level beer producers), though at the industry level I've found peer reviewed evidence that when taken (if at all) the mash pH is indeed to be taken (and read) at mash temperature, as opposed to 20 degrees C. This alone puts mash pH at about 0.25 to 0.35 points lower (depending upon whom you believe), simply due to measurement temperature difference.

I do recall AJ deLange stating explicitly in one of his posts to this forum that when he has asked industry insiders their take on "mash pH" their general response to him has been along the paraphrased lines of "That seems to be much more of a concern for home brewers".

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Weyermann and most other European maltsters state "Wort pH" on their analysis sheets. As stated above, there does not appear to be an industry standardized method for the taking of "mash pH", but there is EBC standard number 8.17 for wort pH.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

From Weyermann, clearly showing that mash pH and Wort pH are different, even for the untreated mash/wort:

Within the range of the nominal pH's of most concern to home brewers, the measured difference between a "mash pH" and a "wort pH" seems to be about 0.21 to 0.23 pH points. Is this due to mash pH being read at mash temperature, or (as I suspect) due to something else. I emailed Weyermann for clarification of this a few months ago, but they did not respond to me.

There have been measurements taken by forum members who have seen mashes adjusted to ballpark 5.4 as measured at room temperature at 15-20 minutes into the mash resulting in measured pH's of about 5.61 to 5.63 post the mash (also as measured at room temperature).

There is also an industry level peer reviewed paper I recently read wherein a series of 5 or 6 base malt samples were all adjusted via either biological or mineral acid during the mash to read 5.4 pH as measured specifically at mash temperature (as the article makes quite explicit, and with each being at 50 degrees C. at this juncture of a step-mash), and for which the post lautering "Wort pH" as measured at 20 degrees C. ranged from 5.8 to 5.9 (or 5.85 pH on average) for all samples. This is an average rise of an astounding 0.45 pH points across the transition from early mash to further downstream wort. Roughly half of which I credit to the measurement temp. difference (50 C. vs. 20 C. measurement), and half being due to the typical difference Weyermann sees between "mash pH" and "Wort pH". This 0.45 pH rise being why I suspect that the difference in "mash" and "wort" pH valuations can not be due solely to measurement temperature differential alone.

 

[Jag75]

I will have to check and make sure I dont have it as base malt . I'm guessing it should be listed as a crystal ? I emailed the company and asked about the ppg of the grain. He didnt know gave me some plato #'s and said I should get a FG of 1.010 when using this grain 100% in a brew . I rechecked my amounts of water . My recipe was for a 5.5 gallon but I had it down as 5. So after I adjusted that my ph went to 5.3 .

@Silver_Is_Money are you saying my water profile for this beer isnt good?
The cation/anion ?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I will have to check and make sure I dont have it as base malt . I'm guessing it should be listed as a crystal ? I emailed the company and asked about the ppg of the grain. He didnt know gave me some plato #'s and said I should get a FG of 1.010 when using this grain 100% in a brew . I rechecked my amounts of water . My recipe was for a 5.5 gallon but I had it down as 5. So after I adjusted that my ph went to 5.3 .

@Silver_Is_Money are you saying my water profile for this beer isnt good?
The cation/anion ?

It definitely isn't a crystal malt. It wouldn't have a wort pH of 5.6 max if it was crystal. It would be more like 5.3 max wort pH. for the case of crystal (which would be more on the order of ~5.0 to ~5.1 mash pH). The closest match is (IMHO) along the lines of biscuit or Munich.

Give me the amount (volume) of RO water and the amounts of minerals added and I'll check the cation/anion charge balance and also determine if your minerals could indeed give the profile which you reported.

 

[IslandLizard]

What is really needed here is to mash 50 grams of this crushed malt in 200 mL of DI water, and to measure the resulting pH at 20 degrees C. at 15 minutes into the mash. Only then will you know the mash pH (or nominal DI_pH). Then allow the mash to continue for 60-90 minutes, separate the wort from the grist, and take its pH again at 20 degrees C. to achieve what I'm presuming will be at this juncture its "Wort pH". Until then, all is speculation.

Re: The 15-minute mash sample.
Just take a half ounce of the wort from the mash, chill quickly to 20C and take a pH reading? Then return it?
Would taking 2 or 3 samples say 15, 30 (and 45) minutes give a better insight or average?

Do the same for crystal/specialty/roasted malts, just steeped?

 

[Jag75]

Mash water - 4.81G
Sparge water - 2.90G

.5g Gypsum in mash
.3g Gypsum in sparge

1.29g CaCI in mash
.7g CaCI in sparge

 

[Jag75]

On the Bru n water you have Base malt, Crystal, Oats&Wheat and roasted Barley I believe .

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Re: The 15-minute mash sample.
Just take a half ounce of the wort from the mash, chill quickly to 20C and take a pH reading? Then return it?
Would taking 2 or 3 samples say 15, 30 (and 45) minutes give a better insight or average?

Do the same for crystal/specialty/roasted malts, just steeped?

With no clearly defined mash pH guidance from the EBC or ASBC, all of this is ground breaking to some extent, so my opinion is ideally to run identical side by side mashes and take pH's at varying mash times from individual samples (rather than pouring any back), culminating in what would effectively be a close representation of the "Wort pH" for the sample taken at the very completion of the mash. So, ideally each malt should be tested at 15, 30, 45, 60 minutes of mashing. But to cut this down somewhat, 15 and 60 minutes seem to be more reasonable of a request. And sadly, the knowledge gained thereby may prove to be most pertinent to no-sparge mashing (upon scale-up). ???

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

On the Bru n water you have Base malt, Crystal, Oats&Wheat and roasted Barley I believe .

I can't help you with Bru'n Water. I can only suggest that there are more malt classifications than that.

 

[Jag75]

My LHBS is the one who made the red kolsch . He told me he would let me know what his water build was and ph . So hopefully I can get more info on the grain.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Mash water - 4.81G
Sparge water - 2.90G

.5g Gypsum in mash
.3g Gypsum in sparge

1.29g CaCI in mash
.7g CaCI in sparge

That does not result in:
50 cal
0 mag
35 sodium
61 sulfate
64 chloride

 

[Jag75]

That does not result in:
50 cal
0 mag
35 sodium
61 sulfate
64 chloride

What are you getting?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

What are you getting?

It depends upon the hydration state of the CaCl2. I presume that BW uses anhydrous (for the free version) so for that case I get:

Ca++ = 31.0 ppm
Mg++ = 0 ppm
Na+ = 0 ppm
Cl- = 43.6 ppm
SO4-- = 15.3 ppm

 

[Jag75]

How in the world did I come up with the numbers I got lol. So with the info you got ,is it a good profile for this?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How in the world did I come up with the numbers I got lol. So with the info you got ,is it a good profile for this?

I'm not a big fan of water profiles in general, and as I've stated, I never heard of this malt until today and don't know much at all about it. That said, if you like the beer, then the water profile is a winner. Nothing is inherently wrong with it.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I emailed the company and asked about the ppg of the grain. He didnt know

ppg is effectively an imperial unit of measurement - most of the world uses 'extract yield', which is given as a percentage (he might not have heard of ppg).
Viking red active is listed as a minimum of 79% extract fine, which gives a ppg of
1 + 0.79 x 0.04621 = 1.0365ppg.
That's a minimum, so you could probably just use 1.037ppg.

 

[Jag75]

ppg is effectively an imperial unit of measurement - most of the world uses 'extract yield', which is given as a percentage (he might not have heard of ppg).
Viking red active is listed as a minimum of 79% extract fine, which gives a ppg of
1 + 0.79 x 0.04621 = 1.0365ppg.
That's a minimum, so you could probably just use 1.037ppg.

Funny because I guessed a ppg of 36 or 37. Rolling with 37 PPG , EBC of 35 . Expecting 1.059 OG and 1.015 FG

 

[Jag75]

@Silver_Is_Money . Just got back on this program. The numbers I posted were overall finished water profile.
Numbers that are similar to what you posted are my mashing water profile which was 31cal, 0mag, 8sodium, 16sulfate and 46 for chloride.

I'm still showing my ph @5.3 with no lactic acid in the mash . Only 1.3ml in sparge?

I've never brewed this before . Does this water profile look ok for an American Red guys?

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

@Silver_Is_Money . Just got back on this program. The numbers I posted were overall finished water profile.
Numbers that are similar to what you posted are my mashing water profile which was 31cal, 0mag, 8sodium, 16sulfate and 46 for chloride.

I'm still showing my ph @5.3 with no lactic acid in the mash . Only 1.3ml in sparge?

I've never brewed this before . Does this water profile look ok for an American Red guys?

I'm very confused. Where is the sodium coming from if you are using RO water and only adding CaCl2 and CaSO4 to it? Also, if your sparge water is RO there is no need for 1.3 mL of Lactic Acid in the sparge water. Are you sure that you have given us all of the details for your water?

 

[doug293cz]

I feel compelled to inject at this juncture that I'm beginning to lean toward pH adjustment that is made post lautering and pre-boil for most beer recipes, rather than at the mash (or rather pre-mash) stage. There are far less variables to be juggled when taking this approach, as at this juncture the wort is divorced from the grist and the only remaining variables of concern are wort volume, wort SG, wort buffering factor, and wort pH. My research indicates that the ideal target pH for pre-boil Wort adjustment is 5.2 (though some sources say 5.0 to 5.2).

How does this square with the purpose of pre-mash water adjustment being to get the mash pH in a range favorable for the enzymes?

Brew on

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

How does this square with the purpose of pre-mash water adjustment being to get the mash pH in a range favorable for the enzymes?

Brew on

For the most part, it may completely replace it. Alpha and Beta Amylase enzymes will perform adequately across a relatively broad range of the most typically encountered pH's. They are more concerned with temperature than with pH.

This is a rapidly evolving change in my thinking. See also my post #32 below.