Have I been batch sparging wrong?

[storytyme]

I have read a lot of posts all over the internet and I think I am still a bit confused, so I will keep it short and simple and am looking for some clear answers. I have batch sparged for 30+ batches now and my efficiency is around 60-65%. Here is what I do:

Mash in a cooler at an example temp of 152 degrees for 60 min.

Drain the mash tun.

Add 168 degree water to mash tun. Stir. Let it sit for 20 min, then drain to get pre-boil volume.

Do I need to add hotter water than the 168? Should I add hot water before I drain the first time? What are my errors or improvements that I can make to my process?

Any advice and constructive criticism is GREATLY appreciated.

 

[Bobby_M]

You don't NEED hotter water but you can use hotter water in the range of 185-190F and the main benefit of doing so is that your total wort will be closer to boiling temps than using cooler water. You don't need the 20 minute rest either. Just add, stir it in really well for 3 minutes, vorlauf and drain. Your efficiency is rather low, but it's probably related to a coarse crush.

 

[titansvol]

I agree with Bobby. You might want to check your crush.

 

[storytyme]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

 

[b-boy]

I used to do a double batch sparge and let my mash tun rest for 10 minutes before draining. It added an extra 30 minutes to my day. I started doing a single rinse (based on mash tun capacity) immediately after stirring. There was no difference between the two methods. Stirring really well is the key IMHO.

 

[b-boy]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

Ask them to double crush it and see if it makes a difference. That, or get a grain mill.

 

[YeastMode]

Just say that you are trying to dial in your efficiency and you were curious what their setting is. If it is too wide, then ask why they hae it set so wide. Have them put a feeler gauge in if they have one. Sometimes people mess with it and no one realizes.

Also, are they using a drill? Sometimes they run it too fast, so if so, ask to run it slower and/or twice.

 

[storytyme]

Thanks guys. I'll take the advice and see what happens. Happy Holidays.

 

[Wormburner]

then drain to get pre-boil volume.

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

 

[titansvol]

I had very inconsistent efficiency numbers until I bought a mill. The one at my LHBS was always getting messed with.

 

[storytyme]

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

The volumes are all pre-calculated in beer smith. By the time it is completely drained I hit my target pre boil volume every time.

 

[Yooper]

When you add your sparge water, are you calculating how much you need to add so you are not leaving any (or at least not much) behind in your mash tun? ...or are you adding more sparge water than you need and only running off until you hit your target volume?

You never want to leave any liquid behind in your mash tun when batch sparging!

If you're unsure of how much you need, simply measure the first runnings. If you need, say, 3.5 gallons, to hit your boil volume then that is how much to use in the batch sparging round.

 

[masonsjax]

I usually sparge with cold water just cause I'm lazy or forget to start heating it. Absolutely zero effect on efficiency. The key, as others have mentioned, is a good crush and stirring like you mean it. Good advice to measure first runnings when completely drained, then you know exactly how much sparge water to add. Once the grain is wet, what you put in is what you get out.

 

[Wormburner]

Good, Beersmith makes it easy to calculate volumes. If your volumes are correct, then I'm with these guys that it's likely to be the crush. I bought a mill soon after going to all-grain, and have noticed my crush to be much more consistent than friends' grain milled at the shop. Once I had the mill, I started buying base malt by the sack; the savings paid for the mill in short order.

 

[IrocChris]

Try increasing your grain bill by a couple % for each type of grain. Before I bought a mill, I ran into the same problem at my LHBS. It wasn't too much of a hassle to add an extra pound/oz here or there to make sure I hit my OG. Getting a mill worked wonders for my efficiency.

 

[butterpants]

My efficiency shot up 10% once instarted draining the mash slower.

 

[acidrain]

My efficiency shot up 10% once instarted draining the mash slower.

Then you need to mash longer, indicating a coarse crush.

 

[butterpants]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

 

[DrunkleJon]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the only way I can see sparge speed affecting efficiency would be if you are fly sparging rather than batch. With a fast fly sparge you can get channelling which will bypass grain that still has sugars to give up. With batch sparging since you drain, add more water and stir you are mixing everything back up again and all of your batch of runnings are all the same gravity.

So, if batch sparging and you get higher efficiency from draining your runnings slower, it is most likely a conversion problem. With fly slowing down can definitely help.

 

[Yooper]

So, if batch sparging and you get higher efficiency from draining your runnings slower, it is most likely a conversion problem. With fly slowing down can definitely help.

I'm not sure it's a conversion issue- it's more likely a lautering issue.

Batch sparging works like a washing mashing- add the rinse water, stir/agitate to 'knock' the sugars into solution, and drain. Rapidly works as well as slowly. If a slower draining increases the SG of the runnings, then there is some sort of issue but I'm not sure what it is.

 

[RmikeVT]

My LHBS crushes the grains. How to I address it with them with out sounding like a jerk?

They keep a wide gap to A) Prevent people from getting stuck mashes, B) Sell more grain and C) Sell more grain.

You should invest in purchasing your own mill and getting it dialed in. At my LHBS I get 70% efficiency from their crush. I bought my own mill and dialed in the crush, condition my grain and get between 80%-85% efficiency. Although, I've found 80% to be the sweet spot for me, the porridge is just riiight. Also, buying base malt in bulk will save you lots of $$ and you will get ROI on the mill. ~$1.85-$2.00/lb for base malt vs. $0.85/lb for a sack of malt.

 

[masonsjax]

No, conversion was complete. What I need to do is drain it slower instead of full open ball valve. I've already troubleshooted and remedied my issue, thanks though.

Speed of sparge and its effect on efficiency is a known phenomenon and discussed on a regular basis in some of the more popular brew podcasts.

I've never seen scientific eveidence to support that claim and my personal anecdotal evidence supports the opposite. Iced tea tastes exactly the same whether you pour a glass quick or take a half hour to do it. I agree with the others, if you're seeing efficiency boosts by sparging slower (or with hotter sparge water), there's a problem somewhere and it's probably pH or crush related, or perhaps you don't stir vigorously enough before draining.

Also, I've noticed a lot of people judge conversion being complete by looking for a clear wort, or by using iodine. Neither tell you that full conversion is complete, only that alpha amylase has mostly done it's part. There could also be thermometer issues, or dough balls, etc that also cause issues that might be resolved by slower draining (aka longer mashing).

 

[butterpants]

Nor have I seen any scientific evidence... but then again there aren't exactly a plethora of folks doing brew research (compared to other topics of interest). Wish I could remember which Brew Strong episode they specifically talked about this.

Apparently, without someone running a few quality experiments, we're doomed to argue about it.

 

[DrunkleJon]

I am not trying to argue, I am interested in how it works. My efficiency is acceptable to me but I am wondering about the reasoning behind it. If it works for you, do not let me(us) dissuade you, though in my experience the only down side to a quick drain is a stuck sparge. If you do locate it let me know, I would like to hear about it.

 

[brdb]

I have also heard that draining your mash/sparge slower when batch sparging can boost your efficiency, not sure how it would do so and I have yet to try it, but it might explain his boost in efficiency.

 

[masonsjax]

There are a lot of reasons a slow drain could potentially improve (or appear to improve) efficiency, however they are workarounds for whatever the real problems are. Someone suggested the problem was a coarse crush (a good bet), and the response was that there is no problem, thanks anyway. Maybe it wasn't the intention, but that sounded pretty closed minded to me. If anyone is truly interested in addressing this symptom properly, there actually has been a good deal of documented experimenting done by many folks here, probably most notably Kai Troester.

 

[Bamsdealer]

60-65% is reasonable for a single sparge. If you want to be in the 75/80% range try a double or triple batch sparge with smaller amounts of water. To keep your brew time the same dont heat the sparge water and dont wait to drain. Just stir really well

 

[masonsjax]

Test results show splitting up sparge additions makes absolutely zero difference in efficiency, which makes sense. Stir vigorously, that's all you need to do, and that's easier with a thinner single sparge addition.

 

[histo320]

For what is worth, when I batch sparge I do it twice. Your exact method but I just divide up the water into two batches. Once I started doing this method my efficiency did improve.

 

[Bamsdealer]

I definately get better efficiency when going multiple batch sparges. I generally do two as the running from the third sparge dont have much sugar and you'll get diminishing returns on sparges beyond that