has anyone tried freeze distilling?

[Revvy]

Revvy, you keep referencing laws at the federal level. Federally, homebrewing is legal. Now on the state level.......

What are you getting at? On the state level homebrewing is legal in IIRC 49 of 50 states...It's only illegal iirc in Alabama....or maybe one more that I cant recall, but I think Alabama is the only holdout now.

People were arguing whether freeze concentration is illegal federally...I showed it's not. On a state level, who knows, and I don't really care. I didn't speak of state statutes.

I only care about misconceptions and that it was federally illegal is one of those misconceptions people have. And we have been discussing this and other aspects of brewing laws on here for awhile. When Spencer called the TTB, and got the clarification it was a big deal in the homebrewing community for those who keep up with stuff like this.

 

[Qhrumphf]

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=february-20-2009---barleywine-ice-beer

That's the Basic Brewing episode. The statutes Revvy mentioned above (including the .5% one) has to do with taxation, which, per TTB (and thus official legal regulation) doesn't apply to homebrewers. It's an issue for pro brewers, but not for us.

 

[Revvy]

Back to the question posed by the OP. I filled up a sanitized milk jug with an Imperial Black Ale aged with oak chips soaked in Jack Daniels and put it in the freezer. About 24 hours later, I poured the contents into a growler and then proceeded to bottle it. This was in February and I haven't tried the results yet.

I was going to do it with my 5 year aging barleywine, but now that it's already at 17.5% I don't think it needs to be any stronger. I'd like to hear how it turns out.

 

[sudsmcgee]

What are you getting at? On the state level homebrewing is legal in IIRC 49 of 50 states...It's only illegal iirc in Alabama....or maybe one more that I cant recall, but I think Alabama is the only holdout now.

People were arguing whether freeze concentration is illegal federally...I showed it's not. On a state level, who knows, and I don't really care. I didn't speak of state statutes.

I only care about misconceptions and that it was federally illegal is one of those misconceptions people have. And we have been discussing this and other aspects of brewing laws on here for awhile. When Spencer called the TTB, and got the clarification it was a big deal in the homebrewing community for those who keep up with stuff like this.

I'm getting at the fact that you keep saying things like "It's not illegal, we have beaten this to death", but you fail to qualify it with the statement "at the federal level, please check your local laws before proceeding." Many people have stated that it may be illegal in their state.

My point is that it may be illegal for some people on this board in their own state. It doesn't matter whether it's a state or federal law if it's illegal.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Back to the question posed by the OP. I filled up a sanitized milk jug with an Imperial Black Ale aged with oak chips soaked in Jack Daniels and put it in the freezer. About 24 hours later, I poured the contents into a growler and then proceeded to bottle it. This was in February and I haven't tried the results yet.

I don't know if the freezing aspect would change anything (I can't think of why it would, but maybe someone more science-savvy knows something I don't), but wouldn't pouring from a jug to a growler oxidize the hell out of it?

 

[OG2620]

I was going to do it with my 5 year aging barleywine, but now that it's already at 17.5% I don't think it needs to be any stronger. I'd like to hear how it turns out.

Yeah, my brew only came in at about 9% so I figured that it would be a good candidate. I almost cracked one open the other night. Maybe tomorrow. I'll post my findings.

 

[Revvy]

I'm getting at the fact that you keep saying things like "It's not illegal, we have beaten this to death", but you fail to qualify it with the statement "at the federal level, please check your local laws before proceeding." Many people have stated that it may be illegal in their state.

My point is that it may be illegal for some people on this board in their own state. It doesn't matter whether it's a state or federal law if it's illegal.

Why do I NEED TO? I'M ONLY speaking about the federal law....That's the ONLY reason I responded to this thread. NOT TO TALK ABOUT ANY STATE STATUTES. If I felt the need to speak on that I would have. I ONLY WANTED TO CLARIFY ABOUT THE FEDERAL LAWS.....

If YOU want to speak about specific state laws THEN DO SO.....Do some googling and post them.....THAT'S NOT WHY I ENTERED THE DISCUSSION.

I entered this discussion FIRST because I'm interested in freeze concentration. I then posted because some folks said originally that it was illegal on a FEDERAL level, which I clarified.....I don't have to tell other adults what to do or not to do...I ONLY provided some FACTS about the FEDERAL LAW amid the speculation....

You want more, then rather than bitching about what I DID do, then provide it. If YOU want to put a caveat about state laws in a post DO SO...I'm not in this discussion to do so.....these are grown ups here...they can figure it out.

MMe, I'd like to get back on track about DOING IT, since the mods have said it is ok to talk about it.

 

[Revvy]

I don't know if the freezing aspect would change anything (I can't think of why it would, but maybe someone more science-savvy knows something I don't), but wouldn't pouring from a jug to a growler oxidize the hell out of it?

It's probably so warmly alcoholic that you probably wouldn't notice. Some "oxidation" type flavors show up in barleywines anyway sometimes. But if the bite is so strong, it's not that much of an issue.

It's like doing a wine reduction in cooking, or boiling down pan juices for a sauce. All the flavors or going to be more intense.

Of course if the oxidation is present that would intensify as well.

 

[Yooper]

Whoa. Everybody calm down and go drink a homebrew.

We encourage all to obey their state statutes as well as federal law, so please check in your jurisdiction if you have questions about the legality of freeze concentrate of alcoholic beverages.

 

[OG2620]

I don't know if the freezing aspect would change anything (I can't think of why it would, but maybe someone more science-savvy knows something I don't), but wouldn't pouring from a jug to a growler oxidize the hell out of it?

I believe that it concentrates the flavors, especially in a more complex beer, since you are removing a volume of water.

But you are right, the pouring would tend to oxidize the final product. We'll see. I tried to do it as carefully as possible as the ice chunks made siphoning seem unlikely.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

It also concentrates off flavors. If you are gonna try it start with a very cleanly fermented beer.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Not some folks. One person. The other two said it is likely illegal at the state level before you posted.

it's illegal in a lot of states, as it's considered distilling. i don't know about wa, but in tx, can't do it

I suppose freeze concentrating may have restrictions from one state to the next, but I don't believe it is illegal across-the-board, like distilling.

I'm just trying to point out that just because Revvy says it's legal doesn't mean it's legal for everyone here. People tend to follow your word like gospel, like you're a preacher or something.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I believe that it concentrates the flavors, especially in a more complex beer, since you are removing a volume of water.

But you are right, the pouring would tend to oxidize the final product. We'll see. I tried to do it as carefully as possible as the ice chunks made siphoning seem unlikely.

I know what the freezing does in termps of concentrating flavor (and alcohol). Wasn't sure if being that cold would provide any buffer against oxidation. Like I said, I can't think of a reason why it would.

 

[jeepinjeepin]

I know what the freezing does in termps of concentrating flavor (and alcohol). Wasn't sure if being that cold would provide any buffer against oxidation. Like I said, I can't think of a reason why it would.

Staling and oxidative reactions should occur slower at lower temperatures. It still might be worth it to have Nitrogen or CO2 handy for purging.

 

[mattd2]

The defintition of a still per ATF law.

Still. Any apparatus capable of being
used for separating alcoholic or spirituous
vapors, or spiritous solutions, or
spirits, from spirituous solutions or
mixtures, but shall not include stills
used for laboratory purposes or stills
used for distilling water or other nonalcoholic
materials where the cubic
distilling capacity is one gallon or less.

The red lettering is added by me to show why I believe freeze distilling is illegal.

I guess the big point (and it was said before) is that with a still you are seprating the spirit off so as per above it is a still.
With freeze concentration you are separating the water and removing that, the spirit stays in the solution. Therefore it is not a still.
The big issue with using the above is that this is just the definaition of a still not the regulation the controls distilling or freeze concentration so really the above doesn't actually matter

 

[runningweird]

I was bottling off a keg of saison, i finished bottling and when I brought the keg upstairs I discovered it was about 1/3 full of ice.

it is strong, extremely belgiany, and not really at all enjoyable.

A friend coined the name "funky drunk" to describe the abomination.

 

[OG2620]

I know what the freezing does in termps of concentrating flavor (and alcohol). Wasn't sure if being that cold would provide any buffer against oxidation. Like I said, I can't think of a reason why it would.

That's a good point. I wonder if anyone else has any insight into that.

 

[mcwilcr]

Back to the question posed by the OP. I filled up a sanitized milk jug with an Imperial Black Ale aged with oak chips soaked in Jack Daniels and put it in the freezer. About 24 hours later, I poured the contents into a growler and then proceeded to bottle it. This was in February and I haven't tried the results yet.

When you did yours did you carbonate the bottles or did you leave it as a still beer? If you carbed, how many volumes did you carb too?

I've been considering doing this with about a growler if a Belgian double I have but cant decide if I should attempt to carbonate or leave it alone like the basic brewing guys did.

 

[OG2620]

When you did yours did you carbonate the bottles or did you leave it as a still beer? If you carbed, how many volumes did you carb too?

I've been considering doing this with about a growler if a Belgian double I have but cant decide if I should attempt to carbonate or leave it alone.

I left it as a still beer. I don't know why I did.

 

[mcwilcr]

I left it as a still beer. I don't know why I did.

It would certainly be easier to leave it still and the basic brewing guys said they would probably prefer it that way. My thought is, I have had Eisboch before Ann it was carbed and I don't think I would have liked it as well still. The problem is to carb it requires pitching a champaign yeast and adding priming sugar. I'm not sure how much of a PITA this could turn out to be.

 

[OG2620]

It would certainly be easier to leave it still...

That is probably what I was thinking. I have an Eisbock in the fridge which I will likely use as a sort of comparison.

 

[mcwilcr]

That is probably what I was thinking. I have an Eisbock in the fridge which I will likely use as a sort of comparison.

Well get busy drinking and sharing!

 

[OG2620]

Well get busy drinking and sharing!

I'll get on it!!!

 

[ReverseApacheMaster]

TTB regulations appear very clear that concentrating beer by freezing is distinguished from distillation. 27 CFR 25 subpart R discusses the process of concentrating beer by freezing and its legality. There's two ways beer is freeze concentrated. One is discussed above in the thread, where a small amount is frozen and filtered out to raise the ABV by less than a point. That's how you get beers like Bud Ice. The second is concentrating to a much more concentrated amount to allow brewers to transport the beer in a smaller volume to other breweries within the same company but it has to be reconstituted to the same gravity it was before concentration. What's significant is that 27 CFR 25.262a specifically distinguishes freeze concentration from distillation. This regulation applies to commercial brewing, not homebrewing so it is a bit of a grey area whether the TTB could assert concentration at the homebrew level is impermissible under the homebrewing exception. It falls in that same area as adding liquor to your beer (which is fortifying beer, which is illegal for commercial brewers but a grey area to homebrewers).

Each state is free to design more limiting restrictions on what homebrewers are legally permitted to do with their beer.

 

[Shooter]

Not some folks. One person. The other two said it is likely illegal at the state level before you posted.

To be clear, my comment was "I suppose" it could be restricted at the state level. I have no knowledge of any state specific restrictions on freeze concentration.

Essentially, like Revvy, I wasn't about to go look up the laws for each state. I also purposefully didn't post the information about the James Spencer broadcast, because I just had a feeling where this was headed. This is one of those topics that, every time it comes up, results in a six page thread of people trying to explain everything all over again. I was hoping to avoid that.

So, I know the whole idea of asking people to use the search function is frowned upon as somehow being wrong, but can people at least begin to see where it might be, at the very least, a viable option?!?!

All that being said, your point is absolutely valid. If people are concerned about this, they need to look into state and local laws and regulations and not rely on a bunch of yahoos, myself included, on an internet forum to advise them of the legal ramifications of ANY activity!

 

[jeepinjeepin]

To be clear, my comment was "I suppose" it could be restricted at the state level. I have no knowledge of any state specific restrictions on freeze concentration.

Essentially, like Revvy, I wasn't about to go look up the laws for each state. I also purposefully didn't post the information about the James Spencer broadcast, because I just had a feeling where this was headed. This is one of those topics that, every time it comes up, results in a six page thread of people trying to explain everything all over again. I was hoping to avoid that.

So, I know the whole idea of asking people to use the search function is frowned upon as somehow being wrong, but can people at least begin to see where it might be, at the very least, a viable option?!?!

All that being said, your point is absolutely valid. If people are concerned about this, they need to look into state and local laws and regulations and not rely on a bunch of yahoos, myself included, on an internet forum to advise them of the legal ramifications of ANY activity!

HBT search sucks. Google it and then follow the links back into HBT.

 

[Shooter]

HBT search sucks. Google it and then follow the links back into HBT.

Agreed, that's the better way to do it. You'll actually find threads that way!

 

[jeepinjeepin]

Crazy thoughts here...what about slowly freezing a carbonated bottle of beer. It would have to be done slowly and only until it got slushy lest you risk breaking the bottle. If it worked you could have bottle conditioned ice beer.

 

[mcwilcr]

Crazy thoughts here...what about slowly freezing a carbonated bottle of beer. It would have to be done slowly and only until it got slushy lest you risk breaking the bottle. If it worked you could have bottle conditioned ice beer.

You mean like strain it straight into the glass? That could work I think... Don't know if you could freeze it enough to do much concentrating without risking the bottle breaking. Hmmmmmm