Has anyone tried caramelizing lactose?

[bottlebomber]

I wasn't planning on adding dairy to it. I'll probably use about a 1/2 cup of corn syrup and a few tablespoons of water. One thing I am very interested in is seeing how the sweetness is - lactose is around 1/5 as sweet as table sugar. That is fine, as my beer has stabilized at 1.025, which is plenty sweet to my taste for a big ol' stout. I'm going to do this on Wednesday. I will post pics.

 

[emjay]

I wasn't planning on adding dairy to it. I'll probably use about a 1/2 cup of corn syrup and a few tablespoons of water. One thing I am very interested in is seeing how the sweetness is - lactose is around 1/5 as sweet as table sugar. That is fine, as my beer has stabilized at 1.025, which is plenty sweet to my taste for a big ol' stout. I'm going to do this on Wednesday. I will post pics.

17% is the figure, so 1/6 Most of its use in beer is more to add body rather than sweetness, but most homebrewers don't seem to be very aware of that fact.

 

[bottlebomber]

17% is the figure, so 1/6 Most of its use in beer is more to add body rather than sweetness, but most homebrewers don't seem to be very aware of that fact.

That's true, it is usually referenced for back sweetening etc but it doesn't really add much perceived sweetness. Like maltodextrine. I'm not trying to use it to increase sweetness, more for an aromatic quality which I am *hoping* it will provide. Splenda is probably a good non-fermentable sweetener but there's no way in heck I'm putting that crap in anything I would serve to a friend.

 

[pjj2ba]

For some reason I can't remember, I was looking up the Maillard reaction the other day and found some pertinent technical information. Yes the maillard reaction requires amino acids, but caramelization does not. There are two kinds of browning of sugars in cooking, one involving amino acids (maillard) and one that doesn't (caramelization)

I might try to caramelize some straight lactose myself. Sound's like a fun experiment. I caramelize sucrose for my Belgian dark strong.

 

[bottlebomber]

So I got my stuff today, and I did it. I feel like it was a big success, and it basically accomplished just what I was after. I decided to sack up and use a dry caramel method. I don't know if that was the best idea, as this stuff behaves MUCH differently than table sugar when it is caramelizing. I had crystallization from hell because I was paranoid about burning it, and stirred about 10x more than I would have if I was making regular caramel. In the end I took it right to where I wanted it, just shy of burnt. One thing that I found very strange was that when sucrose is caramelized, it gets perceivably less sweet as it caramelizes. But with this lactose, it seemed the opposite. It tasted bland and chalky while dry, but rich and sweet when caramelized.
I am very happy with the experiment so far, now I just need to see if the flavor will hold up in the beer. When I was done I put about a pint of water back in, dissolved the caramel, chucked 3 Tahitian vanilla beans in and then put it into secondary and racked my brûlée stout onto it.

 

[emjay]

BTW, I got 2lbs of lactose for $4 at iHerb.com, if anyone is interested. It was some deal for new customers only.

 

[bottlebomber]

BTW, I got 2lbs of lactose for $4 at iHerb.com, if anyone is interested. It was some deal for new customers only.

Heck yeah I'm interested! That's like 1/4 if what MoreBeer charges. I haven't checked out that site but I'll bet they had a lot of other things I need.

 

[emjay]

Heck yeah I'm interested! That's like 1/4 if what MoreBeer charges. I haven't checked out that site but I'll bet they had a lot of other things I need.

Trying to find the deal I used but I can't find it. I'll keep looking, though.

 

[bottlebomber]

Heck yeah I'm interested! That's like 1/4 if what MoreBeer charges. I haven't checked out that site but I'll bet they had a lot of other things I need.

Good grief... That's IP status right there. I guess I was a little excited.

 

[emjay]

Okay, found the deal, but it actually comes out to $4/lb for two pounds. So it's $8, because the shipping is $6 (though it's free if you spend more than $20). Still good, but without the shipping it'd be a *killer* deal at only $1/lb. You can also get only 1lb for just the cost of shipping ($6), but because 2lbs is the better deal, I'll explain it that way.

So... how to get 2lbs of high quality lactose to your door for $8:

1) Go to the following link: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Healthy-Foods-Lactose-Milk-Sugar-1-lb-454-g/657

2) Add 2 of them to your cart.

3) Use the coupon code BUY123 (gives $5 off your first order; $10 if you spend over $40)

4) ?????

5) Profit!

As I originally mentioned, the deal (actually a coupon) is only good for first time customers. Not quite as awesome as I originally thought - or even awesomER, depending on what you were expecting - but it's still by far the best price you'll find on lactose. Apparently I bought it just over a year and a half ago, so I doubt there's any urgent need to buy it before the coupon "expires".

 

[bottlebomber]

Awesome. Getting together enough of an order for free shipping will be no problem. Where did you find that promo code? I wonder how long it's good for..

 

[emjay]

Awesome. Getting together enough of an order for free shipping will be no problem. Where did you find that promo code? I wonder how long it's good for..

I edited that post... read the end of it

 

[bottlebomber]

Great. I may as well go for the 12 pounds. I imagine it will keep for a couple years.

 

[emjay]

The best deal is actually for 15lbs, because the free shipping over $20 only works for 10lbs or less, but there's another method that becomes free at the $40 mark. So it's only $4 more for an extra 3lbs.

Even better deal than getting the 2lbs, actually, as 15lbs comes out to only $2.70/lb. An awesome deal, but that's a lot of lactose!

If only that free shipping applied to Canadian orders too, I'd buy 15lbs tonight

Might be a good idea for group buys, if people have a local homebrew club. People can buy smaller amounts at the same $2.70 rate, and then next time somebody else can place their "first order".

 

[ssgearhart]

I did a Creme Brulee Java Stout a while back. It was a basic stout recipe to start out. I just carmalized a pound or so of table sugar and added it to the end of the boil, along with approx the same amount of of lactose at the same time. Sorry for being vague about the amounts, it's been a while. I then added about 4 cups of fairly strong coffee, and 1 vanilla bean that I split and soaked in a couple of Tbls of vodka for an hour or so to the secondary.
Turned out awsome. I was trying to make something similar to a beer I had at the Great Taste of the Midwest Beerfest from Kuhnhenn Brewing Co. They were serving it out of a Slushie Machine, calling it "Brain Freeze".
Cheers.

 

[bottlebomber]

I love the idea of beer slurpees. Maybe that will be the next big thing, after the kegerator builds die down.

 

[Stauffbier]

So I got my stuff today, and I did it. I feel like it was a big success, and it basically accomplished just what I was after. I decided to sack up and use a dry caramel method. I don't know if that was the best idea, as this stuff behaves MUCH differently than table sugar when it is caramelizing. I had crystallization from hell because I was paranoid about burning it, and stirred about 10x more than I would have if I was making regular caramel. In the end I took it right to where I wanted it, just shy of burnt. One thing that I found very strange was that when sucrose is caramelized, it gets perceivably less sweet as it caramelizes. But with this lactose, it seemed the opposite. It tasted bland and chalky while dry, but rich and sweet when caramelized.
I am very happy with the experiment so far, now I just need to see if the flavor will hold up in the beer. When I was done I put about a pint of water back in, dissolved the caramel, chucked 3 Tahitian vanilla beans in and then put it into secondary and racked my brûlée stout onto it.

Please let us know if there is any sweetness after this beer is finished. I'd like to consider back sweetening my hard apple cider this way!

 

[bottlebomber]

1) Go to the following link: http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Healthy-Foods-Lactose-Milk-Sugar-1-lb-454-g/657

3) Use the coupon code BUY123 (gives $5 off your first order; $10 if you spend over $40)

Just got 8 lbs of lactose for $2.82 a pound delivered, half the price of most places and with free shipping at that. Nice deal.

 

[keesh]

Hey I didn't read the entire thread so, sorry if I missed something, but when you said caramelizing lactose I thought of this:

[ame]http://youtu.be/aWKvV54azWw?t=4m15s[/ame]

Dulce de leche... basically you take milk and sugar and caramelize it. Sounds risky to do with the whole milk Alton uses here, in beer that is, so maybe skim milk would be superior? I wonder if the long cooking would un-ravel the proteins in the milk enough (and the baking soda) would help avoid curds in the beer. Thoughts?

 

[bottlebomber]

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable - and thats what I was trying to get away from. Also by introducing actually dairy you have all of the volatile fats and oil along with whatever other solids are in the milk. I'd love to get actual cream into this if I thought I could get away with it. I don't think I could though, after reading the cheese beer thread.

 

[keesh]

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable - and thats what I was trying to get away from. Also by introducing actually dairy you have all of the volatile fats and oil along with whatever other solids are in the milk. I'd love to get actual cream into this if I thought I could get away with it. I don't think I could though, after reading the cheese beer thread.

Well it was worth a try. I thought choosing skim milk would avoid putting any fat into the beer.

 

[Rhaop]

hmm i'm thinking of trying this, a caramel mocha stout.... served on nitro

 

[bottlebomber]

Well it was worth a try. I thought choosing skim milk would avoid putting any fat into the beer.

I honestly would like to experiment with dairy in beer, as much as I know people will talk crap about it. I know that condensed milk is shelf stable, so there must be a way to stabilize milk products in beer. It may be a matter of bottle pasteurizing it after it carbed. It would be an extremely small batch. Perhaps when I bottle this stout I will add boiled cream to a couple of bottles and pasteurize them after 2 weeks, to see if it's even possible.

 

[ColumbusAmongus]

Did you brew it yet? I want to pop out a high abv sweet stout of some sort this weekend but I might follow your idea with the lactose because it sounds pretty interesting. Pics look good and your description of the lactose gaining sweetness post caramelization is getting me excited!

 

[bottlebomber]

Did you brew it yet? I want to pop out a high abv sweet stout of some sort this weekend but I might follow your idea with the lactose because it sounds pretty interesting. Pics look good and your description of the lactose gaining sweetness post caramelization is getting me excited!

The beer had been brewed when I started the thread, I added the lactose into a secondary with vanilla beans. Probably let it age another 2 weeks and bottle. So if I did this again I probably wouldn't try a dry caramel. I would probably just add about 12 ounces of water to the pound of lactose, and boil the water off and let it caramelize in a dissolved state. The dry caramel method is a little tricky as the lactose is kind of chalky and burns easily. Everything so far is telling me this is a good idea now. And thanks to emjays link have 8 lbs of cheap lactose to play with. I'm thinking a chocolate milk stout tomorrow night.

 

[tedclev]

Bottlebomber, love this idea! What exactly was your process for caramelizing the lactose? Did you mix it with water and then heat? High heat, medium heat? etc... Thanks!

 

[bottlebomber]

Bottlebomber, love this idea! What exactly was your process for caramelizing the lactose? Did you mix it with water and then heat? High heat, medium heat? etc... Thanks!

My process is being adjusted. I went balls out initially and did a dry caramel meaning sugar and nothing else. It's a breeze with table sugar if you have a little stovetop prowess but I found it to be a different world with lactose. I don't know if it has a higher melting point, but for whatever reason it was highly difficult to caramelize this way. I selected the most flattering pictures for the thread, but there were several that didn't make the cut, namely the ones where I stirred the partially caramelized sugar around like the dickens hoping it didn't burn. In the future, I will most definitely be using the easy caramelizing method of using water to dissolve the sugar, then heating until caramelized.

It is pretty simple really. Just use enough water to dissolve the lactose into a thick sludge. Then boil on a medium high heat. Once the water has boiled off it will go blonde and start hitting its caramelization points. Reduce the heat at this point. I have no idea what these are temperature wise for lactose in the way of soft ball, hard ball, etc. I just went by color for my application. If you wanted to do a caramelly flavor I would go light amber. I wanted a burnt sugar flavor so I went dark amber.

One thing for sure though - before you use this you will have to dissolve the caramel again in water to use it. There's no way hard caramel will dissolve in beer in any timely fashion. So just add a pint of water or so keeping in mind that the caramel is around 100 degrees above boiling and will spatter like crazy if you're not careful. The caramel will harden, and you'll have to simmer it until it dissolves. Then use it however you see fit.

I was going to brew tonight, but it will probably be Friday. I'm making a chocolate milk stout. I really don't think this technique is necessary for that, but I want to try it again using the above method. Instead of adding to secondary I will just make this while brewing and add it to the boil.

The jury is still out on this, but I think with a little adaption it can be used to impart some somewhat unique qualities to beer. I'll keep updating until I prove myself wrong

 

[emjay]

The thing if it is that the caramel made with table sugar is still going to be 100% fermentable

I'm still like 98% certain that this is actually untrue.

 

[bottlebomber]

I'm still like 98% certain that this is actually untrue.

I haven't tried that part of it yet! Tomorrow - making 100 ml of caramelized sugar syrup and adding a half packet of champ yeast. If it hits 1.00 I am right. What would it have to hit for you to be right? It must be at least mostly fermentable, right?

Also, I wonder if carbonized sugar would even contribute to brix?

 

[emjay]

I haven't tried that part of it yet! Tomorrow - making 100 ml of caramelized sugar syrup and adding a half packet of champ yeast. If it hits 1.00 I am right. What would it have to hit for you to be right? It must be at least mostly fermentable, right?

Also, I wonder if carbonized sugar would even contribute to brix?

No, it would need to go lower than 1.00, because alcohol is less dense than water. How much lower depends on the original concentration of sugars.

The proper way to do this would be with a control. Make a very well-caramelized solution, and a solution of normal table sugar, both with the same OG and pitch half the pack of yeast into each solution. It'll be like a forced fermentation test... if the caramelized solution finishes higher (and if properly conducted, I can all but guarantee it will), then it's not 100% fermentable.

How fermentable it ends up being would likely depend on how caramelized the sugars are. I bet if the sugar is very well-caramelized, it'd only be minimally fermentable, if at all.