Has anyone tried a different glycol chiller with Grainfather fermenters?

[jcaudill]

Hi,

I've got a Grainfather system I want to use to experiement with some small batch stuff. I've already got a pretty beefy glycol chiller and manifold setup that I could easily use to supply the Grainfather fermenter jacket with glycol. However: what I don't quite grasp is how the temp controller in the Grainfather is calling for cooling from the Grainfather glycol chiller so I can figure out how to reverse engineer it so I can use my existing glycol seutp.

I've seen plenty of stuff of using the Grainfather glycol chiller with other fermenters, but nothing so far on using the Grainfaither fermenters with another chiller.

Thanks!

 

[Gruel]

I have no idea how a grainfather is usually wired, but most liquid systems with a reservoir seem to use two (or more, if you have more than one fermenter or storage keg or whatever you are eventually cooling with the glycol) independent temperature control loops: temperature sensor and loop #1 measure the glycol/water reservoir temperature and turn the primary chiller on and off. They keep the cooling fluid at a constant temperature.

Temperature sensor #2 measures your fermenter or beer or whatever temperature, and turns the pump on and off that circulates glycol/water from the reservoir (controlled by loop#1) to your fermenter and back. The setpoint for loop #2 has to be above the setpoint for loop #1 , otherwise the two loops are completely independent. Loop #1 only 'learns' about what #2 is doing when it sees the cooling fluid (glycol/water) reservoir getting warmer, but there is no electrical coupling, just this real world physical coupling with loop 2 making loop 1 work harder by heating up the cooling fluid.

 

[jcaudill]

My setup is a little different but in principle the same. I've got a 7 gallon glycol chiller that has a recirc pump and feeds it to a manifold I designed based on commercial breweries. Basically it flows through a bunch of pex with some solenoids and when cooling is called for the solenoids open and one downstream closes so all circulation stops and is directed at the tanks that need it. I have a seperate assembly that handles the control side. So I can easily adapt this setup however I don't quite understand how Grainfathers works because the temp controller/probe is integrated into the fermenter and everything seems to be controlled by one cable. They don't have a thermowell that I could just monitor externally.

 

[Gruel]

The 'separate assembly that handles the control side' also includes a pump? It sounds like your secondary loops are all driven by one pump, and solenoids turn the flow to the different consumers on. (There might also be a bypass loop, in case all consumer solenoids are closed? I don't quite get the 'and one downstream closes and all circulation stops' part.)
In that case you don't need any extra pumps, just a temperature sensor on/in the grainfather. If you wanted to use a self-contained (temperature sensor, controller and pump all included) secondary loop, you would have to hook it up to your unpressurized primary coolant vessel (assuming your system has such a thing), not your pressurized manifold.

Your setup sounds complicated enough that there must be a drawing or piping diagram or something.

 

[jcaudill]

The 'separate assembly that handles the control side' also includes a pump? It sounds like your secondary loops are all driven by one pump, and solenoids turn the flow to the different consumers on. (There might also be a bypass loop, in case all consumer solenoids are closed? I don't quite get the 'and one downstream closes and all circulation stops' part.)
In that case you don't need any extra pumps, just a temperature sensor on/in the grainfather. If you wanted to use a self-contained (temperature sensor, controller and pump all included) secondary loop, you would have to hook it up to your unpressurized primary coolant vessel (assuming your system has such a thing), not your pressurized manifold.

Your setup sounds complicated enough that there must be a drawing or piping diagram or something.

So the glycol chiller itself has a recirc pump that requires circulation 100% of the time. The way I've designed my existing setup is I have a control box that powers external temp controllers and when load is called for by those controllers it passes it back through the control box to energize solenoids on the manifold and also a downstream NO valve to close it. This makes sure the flow of glycol is sent through the fermenter(s) that are demanding it and then the return from the fermenters is returned to the manifold past that valve to ensure the continuous recirculation. I can easily diagram this

The challenge with trying to fit the Grainfather conicals into this so far is not on the jacket side. I can easily supply glycol. The challege is the control side. The Grainfathers have an integrated temp controller. How they use that to call for glycol from their own glycol chiller I have no idea. There's a 3-pin kind of XLR style connector on the fermenter. This is the only other connector besides glycol in and out. So my assumption is when the temp controller demands cooling, something is sent through that 3-pin connector. I don't know which pin(s), or what voltage. If I could figure this out, then I'd at least know I can intercept that signal and figure out how to integrate it into my existing setup.

 

[Gruel]

Sounds like you need a diagram for the grainfather. Is that available online, or does anybody here have that? According to this (no diagram, though) the grainfather fermenter expects power (and ground, obviously), and I assume it sends a control signal for a valve (or the pump) on the grainfather chiller. If you power your grainfather fermenter from its own A/C connection, then one of the three wires in the XLR type connector should change either voltage or resistance to ground when the temperature of the liquid in the fermenter moves from below to above the setpoint of this fermenter. And one of the the other two wires should be the ground this signal is referenced to. The third wire would be power, but if you plug in the fermenter to its own power, you probably don't need that.
Just a guess.

So I would fill the fermenter with liquid, enough to make sure the temperature sensor, wherever it may be, is covered, plug it into a wall outlet, and then check the voltage against earth ground on those three wires in the XLR type connector, to identify ground, and then all three combinations of wire pairs on that connector (1-2, 1-3, 2-3) for a change in voltage (first), and, if no voltage difference is present, change in resistance (second) when you change the setpoint of that fermenter.

Once you figure that out, your existing chiller should be a perfect stand-in for the grainfather chiller.

 

[ClaudiusB]

The Grainfathers have an integrated temp controller. How they use that to call for glycol from their own glycol chiller I have no idea. There's a 3-pin kind of XLR style connector on the fermenter. This is the only other connector besides glycol in and out. So my assumption is when the temp controller demands cooling, something is sent through that 3-pin connector. I don't know which pin(s), or what voltage. p.

If you have a multi meter it is easy to find the power for the chiller solenoid. One is ground and the other two are if DC solenoids are used 12 VDC or 24VDC. If they use AC solenoids you will measure AC from 12 V -110V. I use for my fermenters 110V AC solenoids.
Edit: The fermenter doesn't supply any voltage for the solenoid.
I found a cable and external pump with a 12 V supply. Instead of using the pump connect your chiller 12 VDC solenoid.
Cable

 

[deuc224]

Or just have your glycol chillers temp probe go into a thermowell and set the temp for it to turn off and on. It will take a little while to set up but once its going there is nothing to worry about. If it gets too cold, the heater from the grainfather conical will turn on.

 

[jcaudill]

Or just have your glycol chillers temp probe go into a thermowell and set the temp for it to turn off and on. It will take a little while to set up but once its going there is nothing to worry about. If it gets too cold, the heater from the grainfather conical will turn on.

I wish it had a thermowell! The only way to do it this way I can think of is literally dropping a probe down into the beer but I'm not thrilled with this. I just remembered they have a cooling pump wire that might be the key to what I need here. It passes through power to the fermenter (for the integrated controller) but it has 3rd wire that's meant to power a small pump when the fermenter calls for cooling. If I can get a hold of a couple of those and get the specs for them perhaps I can get a solenoids for my existing glycol manifold and I'm in business.

 

[ClaudiusB]

I wish it had a thermowell! The only way to do it this way I can think of is literally dropping a probe down into the beer but I'm not thrilled with this. I just remembered they have a cooling pump wire that might be the key to what I need here. It passes through power to the fermenter (for the integrated controller) but it has 3rd wire that's meant to power a small pump when the fermenter calls for cooling. If I can get a hold of a couple of those and get the specs for them perhaps I can get a solenoids for my existing glycol manifold and I'm in business.

Look at my reply

 

[jcaudill]

Look at my reply

The glycol chiller doesn't have a temp probe but that's irrelevant. Are you talking about putting a temperature controllers probe into something other than the beer and then using that to control glycol flow into the fermenter? And letting the Grainfather heat the beer back up if it happens to get low? Or are you talking about retrofitting the grainfather fermenter with a well?

 

[jcaudill]

Sounds like you need a diagram for the grainfather. Is that available online, or does anybody here have that? According to this (no diagram, though) the grainfather fermenter expects power (and ground, obviously), and I assume it sends a control signal for a valve (or the pump) on the grainfather chiller. If you power your grainfather fermenter from its own A/C connection, then one of the three wires in the XLR type connector should change either voltage or resistance to ground when the temperature of the liquid in the fermenter moves from below to above the setpoint of this fermenter. And one of the the other two wires should be the ground this signal is referenced to. The third wire would be power, but if you plug in the fermenter to its own power, you probably don't need that.
Just a guess.

So I would fill the fermenter with liquid, enough to make sure the temperature sensor, wherever it may be, is covered, plug it into a wall outlet, and then check the voltage against earth ground on those three wires in the XLR type connector, to identify ground, and then all three combinations of wire pairs on that connector (1-2, 1-3, 2-3) for a change in voltage (first), and, if no voltage difference is present, change in resistance (second) when you change the setpoint of that fermenter.

Once you figure that out, your existing chiller should be a perfect stand-in for the grainfather chiller.

Thanks! I guess the only thing I can't quite wrap my head around is how do you check voltage/resistance when both ends are connected (one to the wall and the other to the 3 prong connector on the fermenter that handles the power/signal?) I definitely think you're right because if you look at the Cooling Pump Kit you'll see that connector they have has that third leg for their pump. I think that's 12VDC and if so I should be able to use that as a signal wire and then I just have to figure out how I integrate that into my existing control panel which runs pretty much all 120VAC. I think I could use a relay for that and just use the 12VDC on the control side of the relay and pass through 120VAC load to the output. That way I'm not having to screw around with a bunch of mixed voltage. Or I could not use my existing panel at all and just connect the Grainfathers directly to a couple 12VDC solenoids on the manifold instead. That would likely be easiest! I just have to make sure there's enough amperage there.

 

[ClaudiusB]

The glycol chiller doesn't have a temp probe but that's irrelevant. Are you talking about putting a temperature controllers probe into something other than the beer and then using that to control glycol flow into the fermenter? And letting the Grainfather heat the beer back up if it happens to get low? Or are you talking about retrofitting the grainfather fermenter with a well?

You connect the pump cable to the Grainfather and to a 12 V solenoid( in place of the pump) to control the glycol. You use the same Grainfather controller and temp probe. I am assuming you have the Grainfather controller. You can by the12 mm cable like that with a pig tail from Automation Direct for $10.00. I use a lot of those type cables with same connector.

 

[jcaudill]

You connect the pump cable to the Grainfather and to a 12 V solenoid( in place of the pump) to control the glycol. You use the same Grainfather controller and temp probe. I am assuming you have the Grainfather controller. You can by the12 mm cable like that with a pig tail from Automation Direct for $10.00. I use a lot of those type cables with same connector.

Yep we are on the same page. Wasn't aware I could buy the cable though from automation direct! Would you mind letting me know what's it's called so I find it in there?

One problem solved! Thanks Now I can make some small batch other kind of beer

 

[ClaudiusB]

Yep we are on the same page. Wasn't aware I could buy the cable though from automation direct! Would you mind letting me know what's it's called so I find it in there?

One problem solved! Thanks Now I can make some small batch other kind of beer

Automation Direct cable

 

[augiedoggy]

So the glycol chiller itself has a recirc pump that requires circulation 100% of the time. The way I've designed my existing setup is I have a control box that powers external temp controllers and when load is called for by those controllers it passes it back through the control box to energize solenoids on the manifold and also a downstream NO valve to close it. This makes sure the flow of glycol is sent through the fermenter(s) that are demanding it and then the return from the fermenters is returned to the manifold past that valve to ensure the continuous recirculation. I can easily diagram this

The challenge with trying to fit the Grainfather conicals into this so far is not on the jacket side. I can easily supply glycol. The challege is the control side. The Grainfathers have an integrated temp controller. How they use that to call for glycol from their own glycol chiller I have no idea. There's a 3-pin kind of XLR style connector on the fermenter. This is the only other connector besides glycol in and out. So my assumption is when the temp controller demands cooling, something is sent through that 3-pin connector. I don't know which pin(s), or what voltage. If I could figure this out, then I'd at least know I can intercept that signal and figure out how to integrate it into my existing setup.

I have a couple chillers with these manifolds and solenoid valves, both at home and at the brewpub. I have them both setup with STDP relays so when cooling is called for, any one of my 4 switches turn on and activates one set of relay contacts which opens my 12 or 24v valve and the other set of contacts on the same switch turns on the main pump in the chiller so it doesnt run 24/7.

Grainfather tried to make their setup highly proprietary to stop people from using other hardware it seems... they really want to sell those modified mini aquarium chillers for 3 times the normal cost.

 

[jcaudill]

I have a couple chillers with these manifolds and solenoid valves, both at home and at the brewpub. I have them both setup with STDP relays so when cooling is called for, any one of my 4 switches turn on and activates one set of relay contacts which opens my 12 or 24v valve and the other set of contacts on the same switch turns on the main pump in the chiller so it doesnt run 24/7.

Grainfather tried to make their setup highly proprietary to stop people from using other hardware it seems... they really want to sell those modified mini aquarium chillers for 3 times the normal cost.

I've actually found them to be reasonable to deal with so far though. I explained to them I already have a glycol setup for 1BBL sized batches and really didn't want to purchase their glycol chiller. They haven't turned a blind eye. I'm waiting to compare how much them sending me a few of their cables used for the pump will cost as opposed to have to build my own. But either way - it looks like there's a solution here and thankfully not a complicated one.

My setup work somewhat similar to yours - glycol manifold operates totally off 120VAC but anytime one of my temp controllers calls for cooling a downstream solenoid is also closed to the recirc is stopped and it returns past that solenoid. Very simple!

 

[jcaudill]

Automation Direct cable

Thank you Claudius. According to the tech docs for the chilling pump their pigtail supplies 12VDC and 4.8 watts. It's not going to be enough to directly power most of the 12VDC solenoids that I'm finding so I'm probably going to have to use this with a relay instead. Little more work ugh.

 

[Advance]

I have an icemaster 100 unit that I converted to work with a couple grainfather conicals. My setup is very similar to grainfathers offering in which the fermenters receive power and send their cooling signal to the glycol chiller through a single cable. The cables I use to make the connection are the same cables that are supplied with the fermenters. I could not find the same female bulkhead connector that grainfather used on the fermenters, so I had to cut one of the ends off the cable and install a new 3 pin aviation style connector that would mate to a bulkhead that I could find/purchase. The grainfather cables consist of three wires: +12vdc, -12vdc, and a signal wire that connects to +12vdc when the fermenters onboard/detachable controller calls for cooling. I forgot the color code on the wires and the pin out of the pins in the connector, but you can easily find/map them with a multimeter. Simply connect the cable to the included power supply that came with the fermenter and test the pins on the other end. You should be able to find the +12vdc and the -12vdc pins, which would make the remaining pin the signal. Use this signal to energize a relay, which then powers your solenoid valve for your system.

 

[Gruel]

Is it really +12V and -12V, or +12V and ground?

 

[Advance]

Grainfather sends a simple 12v wall wort transformer with their fermenters, so the outputs are more than likely left floating. I don't remember the transformer having a ground prong. This would mean +12v and -12v, would it not?

 

[Gruel]

Sorry, by ground I didn't mean earth ground, just ground return (0V) for whatever voltage the power supply puts out. So, it is 12V, not 24V, it sounds like.

 

[jcaudill]

I have an icemaster 100 unit that I converted to work with a couple grainfather conicals. My setup is very similar to grainfathers offering in which the fermenters receive power and send their cooling signal to the glycol chiller through a single cable. The cables I use to make the connection are the same cables that are supplied with the fermenters. I could not find the same female bulkhead connector that grainfather used on the fermenters, so I had to cut one of the ends off the cable and install a new 3 pin aviation style connector that would mate to a bulkhead that I could find/purchase. The grainfather cables consist of three wires: +12vdc, -12vdc, and a signal wire that connects to +12vdc when the fermenters onboard/detachable controller calls for cooling. I forgot the color code on the wires and the pin out of the pins in the connector, but you can easily find/map them with a multimeter. Simply connect the cable to the included power supply that came with the fermenter and test the pins on the other end. You should be able to find the +12vdc and the -12vdc pins, which would make the remaining pin the signal. Use this signal to energize a relay, which then powers your solenoid valve for your system.

Thank you! I got some good information back from Grainfather today. Their pre-fab T-cable can handle up to a max of 36w. Given that's 3 amps, I should actually be able to directly power an Echotech 12VDC solenoid directly since it only needs 1.4 amps. If this is the case I grab a couple of those t-connectors and I'm in business! Thanks for all the help.

 

[BigDave1303]

Just to go off on a tangent to your post.
I bought the GF cooling pump kit which consists of a 12v Pump & splitter cable, Couplers to attach to the fermenter, Two cooling hoses with insulation.

I currently use this with a coolbox half filled with water which I keep cool by dropping frozen bottles of water into. It's no big deal replacing the thawed bottles & refreezing but is not the ideal solution.
Rather than buy a GF glycol chiller I was thinking of buying a small under the counter fridge and keep a container of glycol mix in the bottom of the fridge recirculating using my existing pump etc controlled by the conical, using the top half of the fridge to keep a couple of dozen bottles of beer cool.
It's a lot cheaper than buying a GF Glycol chiller & a beer fridge.

Has anyone tried doing this?

 

[jcaudill]

Just to go off on a tangent to your post.
I bought the GF cooling pump kit which consists of a 12v Pump & splitter cable, Couplers to attach to the fermenter, Two cooling hoses with insulation.

I currently use this with a coolbox half filled with water which I keep cool by dropping frozen bottles of water into. It's no big deal replacing the thawed bottles & refreezing but is not the ideal solution.
Rather than buy a GF glycol chiller I was thinking of buying a small under the counter fridge and keep a container of glycol mix in the bottom of the fridge recirculating using my existing pump etc controlled by the conical, using the top half of the fridge to keep a couple of dozen bottles of beer cool.
It's a lot cheaper than buying a GF Glycol chiller & a beer fridge.

Has anyone tried doing this?

I know people do this. It depends a lot of what environment your fermenter is in, how cool you're trying to keep it and the volume of the water bath. If your fermenter is constantly calling for cooling and returning all that warm water to the bath it'll be hard for the fridge to keep up unless the volume of the water bath is significant enough it's not affected as easily. But then again, it takes longer to cool that volume. Also with a fridge you're only going to get the temperature down so far compared to glycol where you can keep it below freezing. It might be fine if you're just trying to knock a few degrees off but once you start getting into a situation you're trying to knock 10 or 20 degrees off, it's probably not going to work well. Glycol chillers are much more efficient. So - it just depends.

 

[BigDave1303]

I know people do this. It depends a lot of what environment your fermenter is in, how cool you're trying to keep it and the volume of the water bath. If your fermenter is constantly calling for cooling and returning all that warm water to the bath it'll be hard for the fridge to keep up unless the volume of the water bath is significant enough it's not affected as easily. But then again, it takes longer to cool that volume. Also with a fridge you're only going to get the temperature down so far compared to glycol where you can keep it below freezing. It might be fine if you're just trying to knock a few degrees off but once you start getting into a situation you're trying to knock 10 or 20 degrees off, it's probably not going to work well. Glycol chillers are much more efficient. So - it just depends.

Thanks for your reply.
I'm not into lager so don't really need to go lower than 18c. Currently the chilling water temp in the coolbox drops to around 12c-15c not long after changing the ice bottle. I replace it as it nears 17c usually before going to bed & then before going to work. I use an inkbird to monitor the water temp. The conical does a good job of chilling at the lower water temp & only runs the pump for a couple of minutes at a time.
My thoughts were to keep a similar volume of water in the bottom of the fridge at around 5c. Agree it would increase a little as it transfers heat but should cool down quite quickly (based on my current experience).

 

[jcaudill]

Thanks for your reply.
I'm not into lager so don't really need to go lower than 18c. Currently the chilling water temp in the coolbox drops to around 12c-15c not long after changing the ice bottle. I replace it as it nears 17c usually before going to bed & then before going to work. I use an inkbird to monitor the water temp. The conical does a good job of chilling at the lower water temp & only runs the pump for a couple of minutes at a time.
My thoughts were to keep a similar volume of water in the bottom of the fridge at around 5c. Agree it would increase a little as it transfers heat but should cool down quite quickly (based on my current experience).

That's good! Doesn't sound like you're dealing with too much of a temperature gradient then. Any idea what temp your chilling water is getting down to in the cool box? One thing to keep in mind as you're pumping warmer water back in, the cooling from a fridge may not be quite as effective as the more direct cooling you're getting from using the ice bottle. Maybe you could do both - keep the bath in the fridge but toss in a ice bottle maybe once a day or once every other day or just toss in some ice. It may help a bit. If you get to a point where the bath is too warm and the fridge just can't cool it fast enough it's going to be constantly running. I don't know you're really going to know for sure how effective it is until you try. I certainly understand the conundrum though. Unfortunately I'm chilling some big tanks so glycol is the only option haha.

 

[BigDave1303]

That's good! Doesn't sound like you're dealing with too much of a temperature gradient then. Any idea what temp your chilling water is getting down to in the cool box? One thing to keep in mind as you're pumping warmer water back in, the cooling from a fridge may not be quite as effective as the more direct cooling you're getting from using the ice bottle. Maybe you could do both - keep the bath in the fridge but toss in a ice bottle maybe once a day or once every other day or just toss in some ice. It may help a bit. If you get to a point where the bath is too warm and the fridge just can't cool it fast enough it's going to be constantly running. I don't know you're really going to know for sure how effective it is until you try. I certainly understand the conundrum though. Unfortunately I'm chilling some big tanks so glycol is the only option haha.

Yea, Chilling water gets down to 12c-15c depending on ambient temp just by doing a couple of ice bottle changes. A couple of weeks ago we had a bit of a heatwave with ambient temp of approx 26c but still managed to brew at 18c. The biggest problem is the time it takes to re-freeze the 2ltr lemonade bottles down from 18c.
It might need to look at fridges with a small icebox in it just to keep a couple of spare ice-packs ready.

 

[jcaudill]

Yea, Chilling water gets down to 12c-15c depending on ambient temp just by doing a couple of ice bottle changes. A couple of weeks ago we had a bit of a heatwave with ambient temp of approx 26c but still managed to brew at 18c. The biggest problem is the time it takes to re-freeze the 2ltr lemonade bottles down from 18c.
It might need to look at fridges with a small icebox in it just to keep a couple of spare ice-packs ready.

I think since you're keeping the entire bath cool those ice bottles will last a little longer. But I can't say how long. Maybe you get a couple days out of one. It's hard to say there are just so many variables here!

 

[BigDave1303]

Once i've got a hold of a cheap fridge & got it set up, I'll post the results back up.
If it doesn't work as expected then at least I have a beer fridge. Happy days!

 

[jcaudill]

Once i've got a hold of a cheap fridge & got it set up, I'll post the results back up.
If it doesn't work as expected then at least I have a beer fridge. Happy days!

Definitely let us know! Spare fridges are never a bad thing in brewing Good luck!