Has anyone ever??

[JTOVERMOHLE]

So I got this farmer friend who I can get some field and/or sweet corn from as well as some raw wheat. Has anyone made something that would include both of these ingredients? Something along the lines of a wheat cream ale was my initial thought. I understand what I will need to do to the corn and wheat...but just looking for recipes or even a place to start....if all else fails, I may get enough from him to experiment with a few batches...but I can always just do a cream ale and a wheat beer...but i would like use both in the same brew. My thought was like a 50% 2row, 30-40% raw wheat and the rest corn.....beer gods, your thoughts and or recipe ideas??

Thanks

JO in MN

 

[bracconiere]

you can malt the wheat...

 

[IslandLizard]

I can get some field and/or sweet corn from as well as some raw wheat.

I understand what I will need to do to the corn and wheat...

You do? It's a lot of work.

Raw wheat and dried corn need to be crushed/milled before you can mash them. They're really hard, and may ruin a typical homebrew 2- or 3-roller mill. Best is probably using an adjusted corn grinder.
After crushing, both needs to be either boiled for 30-60 minutes until their fully gelatinized, or better yet, cereal mashed before they can be used in the main mash, with the added (crushed) 2-row.

If you're using ripe, fresh sweet corn (not dried), they need to be dehusked and kernels removed from the core, of course. They probably benefit from being pre-boiled or cereal mashed too, then crushed/pulverized, before using in the main (beer) mash with the (crushed) 2-row.

 

[bracconiere]

After crushing, both needs to be either boiled for 30-60 minutes until their fully gelatinized

i've brewed with white flour added to my mash, wheat starch gel's at mash temp like barley and oats. so just the corn would need to be boiled.

(i still think malting the wheat would be best option)

and it's not that hard, when i was brewing 100% long grain white rice beer, i'd just put it in the oven overnight at 200f with my strike water, then add my alpha to losen it up, then A LOT of rice hulls! and gluco to the fermentor....sparge was slow, but it worked....

 

[IslandLizard]

i've brewed with white flour added to my mash,

That may work because it's a fine powder. Whole or cracked (unmalted) wheat berries don't gelatinize as fast at mash temps.

Here's pretty good write-up on this topic:
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Cereal_Mashing
I always pre-boil flaked corn for the same reason, it's pre-gelatinization due to flaking is incomplete, IMO. That resulting thin polenta then becomes my strike water, with some cold water added to bring it to the right strike temp.

 

[bracconiere]

Whole or cracked (unmalted) wheat berries don't gelatinize as fast at mash temps.

with as many posts as i've seen about crappy effec, and poor crush i know that!

 

[bracconiere]

I always pre-boil flaked corn for the same reason, it's pre-gelatinization due to flaking is incomplete, IMO.

sound plan for corn...

but back to i'd do if i knew a farmer offering me corn and wheat, lol


malt a 10lb batch of wheat berries, add 7 gallons of water to my 15 gallon kettle, put it in the oven with the lid on, with the ground corn meal. let it sit overnight at 200f. mill the wheat malt, add that to the gel'd corn, after it cools to about 160 or so...mix it till it liquifies, add rice hulls, put in mash tun, let sit till the gravity stops going up...sparge boil with hops on hand? what do you think?

 

[IslandLizard]

but back to i'd do if i knew a farmer offering me corn and wheat, lol

malt a 10lb batch of wheat berries, add 7 gallons of water to my 15 gallon kettle, put it in the oven with the lid on, with the ground corn meal. let it sit overnight at 200f. mill the wheat malt, add that to the gel'd corn, after it cools to about 160 or so...mix it till it liquifies, add rice hulls, put in mash tun, let sit till the gravity stops going up...sparge boil with hops on hand? what do you think?

That should work, sure!
But there are a few days to a week involved to malt the wheat. And you'd end up with a wheat/corn wort without any barley, thus, no maltose. I don't think I've ever tasted anything close to that, except for a well-crafted 12-14% wheat wine once.

The OP was intending on using 50% 2-row, the balance being 30-40% wheat and 10-20% corn.
So he could gelatinize the milled wheat and corn in that 200°F oven overnight, as you illustrated. Then the next morning chill down or add cold water to strike temps, add the crushed 2-row, and mash away. That could make a good wheat/cream ale.

 

[bracconiere]

But there are a few days to a week involved to malt the wheat.

malt it while you're making your yeast starter? i've seen people spending just as much time with those?

and i have to admit it would be an interesting drink! but as far i know it might be good? otherwise germany wouldn't have created the rein's bart(sp?)

 

[IslandLizard]

malt it while you're making your yeast starter? i've seen people spending just as much time with those?

Really...??? <uhm>

 

[bracconiere]

Really...??? <uhm>

what? i can brew a batch, put my barley on to soak, and have it still warm out of the kiln/oven...when i'm kegging my last batch? lol

 

[IslandLizard]

otherwise germany wouldn't have created the rein's bart(sp?)

"Reinheitsgebot"
Purity order!
Not whole Germany, just in Bavaria (a "county" in southern Germany).

 

[bracconiere]

"Reinheitsgebot"
Purity order!
Not whole Germany, just in Bavaria (a "county" in southern Germany).

yeah well, my way is easier to spell, and they must really like bread....or cream puffs...

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

Lots of good information and chatter about the process. I cleary have a little time to process all this and figure out a plan before i go forward with the brew. Farmer guy said winter wheat should be ready for harvest in late july and then depending on if i use sweet corn or field corn....July or later. I'll post my process and results when i have them. Thanks all

 

[bracconiere]

Lots of good information and chatter about the process. I cleary have a little time to process all this and figure out a plan before i go forward with the brew. Farmer guy said winter wheat should be ready for harvest in late july and then depending on if i use sweet corn or field corn....July or later. I'll post my process and results when i have them. Thanks all

i think dent corn would be better for brewing...and this is what you need to do to malt the wheat, and maybe corn husks cut up would replace the rice hulls for sparging?

 

[JAReeves]

Not trying to derail this, but the knowledge base here is pretty good, so let me ask this:

Could you cereal mash or par-cook the wheat or corn for gelatinization of the starches, and take a stick blender or food processor to the grains?

I used whole brown rice, fully cooked, in a mash for a Japanese Lager. I'd love to tell you that was good, but I had an infection in the fermenter that ate that batch and another before I found where the bugs were hiding. That aside, I hit my OG numbers, so some of the rice must have been transformed into pre-alcohol (sugar).

I have not used polenta (corn grits) yet, but I know that it's essentially pre-cooked before the mash, unlike flaked grains which go straight to the MT.

So, could you use whole, raw grains; cook them soft, and then sorta puree them before adding them to a mash?

I MIAB and batch sparge, so I am not concerned with a stuck mash.

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

Not trying to derail this, but the knowledge base here is pretty good, so let me ask this:

Could you cereal mash or par-cook the wheat or corn for gelatinization of the starches, and take a stick blender or food processor to the grains?

I used whole brown rice, fully cooked, in a mash for a Japanese Lager. I'd love to tell you that was good, but I had an infection in the fermenter that ate that batch and another before I found where the bugs were hiding. That aside, I hit my OG numbers, so some of the rice must have been transformed into pre-alcohol (sugar).

I have not used polenta (corn grits) yet, but I know that it's essentially pre-cooked before the mash, unlike flaked grains which go straight to the MT.

So, could you use whole, raw grains; cook them soft, and then sorta puree them before adding them to a mash?

I MIAB and batch sparge, so I am not concerned with a stuck mash.

This is kinda what my plan is for the raw wheat and corn I think. Get them to gelatinize and either a stick or regular blender/food processor to break them down. It will definitely be an experimental beer for me on this one.

 

[IslandLizard]

Get them to gelatinize and either a stick or regular blender/food processor to break them down.

You really don't want to aerate your mash, which if what the blender would be doing.

Flaked corn starts to fall apart when boiling for 10 minutes. I usually boil it for 30'. If the pieces are harder or bigger, give it a longer boil/simmer or presoak for a day.

 

[JTOVERMOHLE]

You really don't want to aerate your mash, which if what the blender would be doing.

Even if the "blending" is done prior to going into the mash bag? Boiling without the blending would work for me as well...just looking for the optimal procedure with what I will be using.

Thanks

 

[IslandLizard]

Even if the "blending" is done prior to going into the mash bag? Boiling without the blending would work for me as well...just looking for the optimal procedure with what I will be using.

Same thing, you'd be aerating the starch solution ("polenta") that goes into the mash.
There are a few other places where one can reduce oxygen incorporation into the mash. Underletting the mash is another easy one.

 

[JAReeves]

I suppose if it isn’t too big of a quantity, one could use a rolling pin? Depends on the liquid content of the grains. My thought is to cook it like firm polenta, quinoa, or rice-it’ll be moist and soft, but not soupy. Then the grains could be pressed to allow for enzyme activity inside and added to a mash. I have made my cereals in advance before, let them cool in the fridge for the next days brew day. Didn’t seem to negatively affect the beer.