Hangin out at my local Micro Bewery (Some Take Aways)

[BierMuncher]

So I emailed one of the brewers at the local Micro Brew the other day asking about getting my hands on some empty bottles that they put to the recycle bin (short fills on the line). They suggest I get up there Thursday night because the recycle truck comes aroun on Friday morning.

So as I finish up loading 4 cases of empties I decide to go in and thank them. Without even thinking about it they say "well you can't come all the way out here without going back to the brewery...go on back there...right through that door and turn left".

So next thing I know I'm standing between 15K and 30K gallon fermenters sipping some of their 5-day IPA and watching them transfer a house ale for the local pubs through their heat exchanger into one of the fermenters.

IT was a great time. These guys love beer. Love talking about beer. Love to talk to you about your homebrew and insist that next time you come in, you'd better bring some samples for them.

Very laid back and what struck me was that this was just like my brewshop...except a lot bigger. Not real high tech (they bottle their 22Oz smoked porter one bottle at a time). This is a pretty good sized micro with about a 6-state distribution to grocery stores and pubs.

They didn't let me leave without setting me up with a couple quarts of their Kolsch slurry straight out of one of the fermenters.

A few take aways I thought I'd share:

~ They use Kolsch yeast for all their beers.
~ They'll reuse the yeast slurries up to 14-15 generations
~ From grain to bottle/keg is two weeks...then straight to the shelves.
~ Most of their beers are not filtered
~ They crash cool their fermenters the last 5 days down to 30 degrees to clarify
~ They use whirlfloc in the kettle as a fining agent
~ They pressurize the fermenters with sufficient residual sugars to achieve about 90% of the carbonation they're after.
~ They will move the beer out of the fermenter and into a bright tank for about 1 day prior to bottling/kegging.
~ They still do small homebrew batches to test recipes.

Anyway, if you guys have a local micro nearby, I'd highly recommend going and hanging with some "like minded" people.

 

[ohiobrewtus]

Sounds like one hell of a good time to me!

 

[BierMuncher]

Yes it was. These guys all started out as homebrewers.

 

[heinz57]

What's the name of the micro brew?

 

[Beerrific]

Someday when I get the time, I am need to hang out the local brewpub more.

Sounds like a lot of fun!

 

[Chad]

That sounds like a heck of a lot of fun. Interesting about the koelsch yeast. I wonder if they use it because it's so aggressive, even at low temperatures. Kind of surprising that they don't filter because koelsch yeast is generally very low flocculation. Their crash cooling procedures must be extremely effective.

Very cool, however, that you walked away with some new friends and a big container of yeast. I asked at our local regional brewery not long ago and, even after some pressing, was firmly (but politely) told that no, I could not have any of their spare yeast.

Chad

 

[sause]

Thanks for naming the company....

 

[BierMuncher]

Thanks for naming the company....

O'Fallon Brewery.

Their motto is simply: "We Love Beer"

 

[gogoplata]

Sounds like a great time and a good group of brewers to be so generous. Not sure if they're all as welcoming (judging from some not all are like this) but you're lucky to have stumbled upon some good ones.

 

[Fingers]

~ From grain to bottle/keg is two weeks...then straight to the shelves.
~ Most of their beers are not filtered

Two weeks? I've heard that before but I can't imagine how they wouldn't be selling green beer. What's the secret? Are they selling ales or lagers? Is this something we can duplicate or does it require some uber-expensive industrial equipment to pull it off?

BierMuncher, you have their confidence. Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is to further infiltrate and glean the secrets of the two week beer. If you're caught, we'll deny any knowledge of you or your mission.

Godspeed.

(This message will be used as a drink coaster in 30 seconds)

 

[BierMuncher]

Two weeks? I've heard that before but I can't imagine how they wouldn't be selling green beer. What's the secret? Are they selling ales or lagers? Is this something we can duplicate or does it require some uber-expensive industrial equipment to pull it off?
...

All ales. They pitch 5-gallon slurries of yeast. Most of their light colored beers have a slight haze.

Their beer definitely does not taste green. Now, it might be 2 weeks to bottle, but it may be another several weeks before the beer is tapped or actually on the store shelves.

They let me taste thier smoked porter as it was being bottled and it was awesome. A great beer fresh...that would only get better if allowed to age.

 

[RichBrewer]

How cool! Man I'd love to experience something like that!

 

[PseudoChef]

I'm gonna contact my local brewery to get those shorties...excellent idea!

 

[eriktlupus]

on mondays at Arcadia Ales here in battle creek i sometimes go in for their bottling run. help them bottle for 3-5 hrs and take home a case of shorties(filled)

i need to go in tomorrow

 

[HenryHill]

on mondays at Arcadia Ales here in battle creek i sometimes go in for their bottling run. help them bottle for 3-5 hrs and take home a case of shorties(filled)

i need to go in tomorrow

If you see Josh, the brewer, tell him I (Leo) said 'Hi'.

BM, I've been trying to tell people all that for a while now.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=46493&page=5

It really is life changing.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

They pressurize the fermenters with sufficient residual sugars to achieve about 90% of the carbonation they're after.

What does that mean?

 

[BierMuncher]

What does that mean?

Think of their fermenters like one huge corny. A corny that has an airlock attached to one of the posts. Once they get the gravity to a certain level (about 90+% attenuated), they remove the airlock and seal up the corny. That holds the CO2 that would normally be released inside the fermenter and the vessel is then dropped to about 30 degrees.

Essentially, they’re just priming the fermenter, sealing it tight and chilling to achieve carbonation/clarity. But instead of adding corn sugar, they just seal it prior to all the fermentables being converted.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Think of their fermenters like one huge corny. A corny that has an airlock attached to one of the posts. Once they get the gravity to a certain level (about 90+% attenuated), they remove the airlock and seal up the corny. That holds the CO2 that would normally be released inside the fermenter and the vessel is then dropped to about 30 degrees.

Essentially, they’re just priming the fermenter, sealing it tight and chilling to achieve carbonation/clarity. But instead of adding corn sugar, they just seal it prior to all the fermentables being converted.

That's awesome. You'd have to really have your process down to know exactly when to seal it before fermentation was done and get the right carb level. That's badass.

 

[Beerthoven]

Two weeks? I've heard that before but I can't imagine how they wouldn't be selling green beer. What's the secret? Are they selling ales or lagers? Is this something we can duplicate or does it require some uber-expensive industrial equipment to pull it off?

[thread=44338]My thoughts exactly...[/thread].

 

[BierMuncher]

[thread=44338]My thoughts exactly...[/thread].

I was there from the time they transferred, pitched a 5-gallon slurry...plus a couple of hours. (This was the 15K fermenter)

Within about 90 minutes of pitching, the bucket they had on the foor with the blow-off tube was already starting to bubble. They figure full fermentation would be complete in 72 hours.

They hold the vessels at 64 degrees so it has to be the shear volume of yeast they pitch that works the beer so fast. They also inject pure oxygen into the transfer hose as it comes out of the heat exchanger.

Another thing is that in the bright tank...they use a carbonation stone at the bottom to achieve full carbonation in a matter of hours. The bright tank is held right at 31-32 degrees.

 

[Rhoobarb]

O'Fallon Brewery.

Their motto is simply: "We Love Beer"

I feel bad now b/c I have seen their stuff on the shelves up here and have never tried any yet. For awhile, it seemed like most of what I saw was their Pumpkin Ale. But more selections are being stocked now.

Think I'll pick up a sixer this weekend. Maybe the Smoked Porter?

 

[Beerthoven]

I was there from the time they transferred, pitched a 5-gallon slurry...plus a couple of hours. (This was the 15K fermenter)

Within about 90 minutes of pitching, the bucket they had on the foor with the blow-off tube was already starting to bubble. They figure full fermentation would be complete in 72 hours.

They hold the vessels at 64 degrees so it has to be the shear volume of yeast they pitch that works the beer so fast. They also inject pure oxygen into the transfer hose as it comes out of the heat exchanger.

Another thing is that in the bright tank...they use a carbonation stone at the bottom to achieve full carbonation in a matter of hours. The bright tank is held right at 31-32 degrees.

The pros obviously have a lot of advantages over homies.

I need to increase my pitching rates and be more aggressive with aeration. Fast & thorough ferments seem to be key.

 

[kinison_fan]

Sounds like a great experience.
I was out a few weeks ago at a bar, and was introduced to someone that was "a brewer from Dog Fish Head".
So obviously I'm interested in chatting with him and ask a few question:
-how long have you been brewing?
-did you start out homebrewing?
-do you still homebrew, or is it like bringing your work home?
-All grain or occasional extract?
-what do you enjoy brewing at home, what kind of equipment?

His answers were all short and barely one word.
Someone else next to me asked something, I turn to answer, and hear this "fellow brewer" say "I hate talking to homebrewers, they think they know everything about brewing..."

Now, I said nothing to him after that, but thought what a complete A-hole toolbag. Maybe I caught him in a bad mood, but I was interested in his line of work and would have liked to chat with him for a while, hell, I would have bought him a beer.

 

[Bobby_M]

The pros obviously have a lot of advantages over homies.

I need to increase my pitching rates and be more aggressive with aeration. Fast & thorough ferments seem to be key.

Key to banging out brews fast that is. I'm sure the beers are great but they're going the extra mile because they're running a biz. I think we can generally wait the extra week.

 

[BierMuncher]

…I was out a few weeks ago at a bar, and was introduced to someone that was "a brewer from Dog Fish Head".
So obviously I'm interested in chatting with him and ask a few question:
…
His answers were all short and barely one word.
…I turn (away), and hear this "fellow brewer" say "I hate talking to homebrewers, they think they know everything about brewing..."

Now that is the kind of comment that ought to resonate throughout this thread and the HB community to come back and bite him in the @ss.

I for one shall never lay lips upon another DFH product. Maybe he ought to brew for “Arrogant Bastard”

 

[the_bird]

Now that is the kind of comment that ought to resonate throughout this thread and the HB community to come back and bite him in the @ss.

I for one shall never lay lips upon another DFH product. Maybe he ought to brew for “Arrogant Bastard”

Let's remember what happened the LAST time we threatened to boycott another well-known craft brewer...

 

[BierMuncher]

Let's remember what happened the LAST time we threatened to boycott another well-known craft brewer...

Oh yeah...


You mean this unruly mob?


I was neutral on that topic...but to slam a homebrewer with disrespect???

Oh well, I guess it's easier for me to boycott since DFH isn't distributed around here .

 

[bigben]

That's what I want to do when I grow up.

 

[rdwj]

His answers were all short and barely one word.
Someone else next to me asked something, I turn to answer, and hear this "fellow brewer" say "I hate talking to homebrewers, they think they know everything about brewing..."

Now, I said nothing to him after that, but thought what a complete A-hole toolbag. Maybe I caught him in a bad mood, but I was interested in his line of work and would have liked to chat with him for a while, hell, I would have bought him a beer.

What a prick. You'd think that a person in that profession would realize that we're their core market segment. DFH's beers are good, but I'd be lying if I said your words won't cross my mind next time I'm selecting beers to purchase.

 

[cubbies]

Those are the same folks I bought my bottles from a while back. They are really some cool folks. I didnt get to talk to the actual brewer, but there were 3-4 workers there that I was shooting the breeze with. They are definitely some cool folk. And I love their 5-day IPA. I dont know what it is about it, but it is honestly one of my favorite IPA's. I think I like it because they dont try to overdo it. I think too often these days brewers try to take an IPA over the top because its supposed to have a lot of hops. Obviously the 5-day has large hop character, but it is very, very well balanced.

 

[Ize]

That's very cool BM. IIRC I sent Pirate Ale a bomber of their Smoked Porter last Christmas. An all-around good beer if you ask me.

As for the guy from DFH, screw em'. I hate their 90 min IPA, but what the hell do I know.

Ize

 

[TexLaw]

What a prick. You'd think that a person in that profession would realize that we're their core market segment. DFH's beers are good, but I'd be lying if I said your words won't cross my mind next time I'm selecting beers to purchase.

I certainly have no cause to defend a jerk with that attitude and the lack of sense to show it so broadly. However, I've had the privilege to chat with Sam Calgione when he came down to speak at the Dixie Cup a few years ago, and did not seem to share that attitude in any way.


TL

 

[the_bird]

I'm not a big fan of DogFish's beers (can somebody do a Folger's Switch with their yeasts to something more attenuative?), but they've always struck me as a company that, on the whole, was very pro-homebrewer. Doesn't mean that they don't employ the occassional ******.

 

[Beerthoven]

Key to banging out brews fast that is. I'm sure the beers are great but they're going the extra mile because they're running a biz. I think we can generally wait the extra week.

You're missing the point. The idea is not to bang out brews fast, but to understand the brewing process better.

I happily give my beer time to clear and carbonate but it bothers me when I taste something I don't like in one of my beers and think "Well, maybe another week or two and this will get better."

I want to make beer without flaws that need time to mellow out in the first place.

Commercial brewers (good ones, anyway) don't seem to have this problem and I'd like to understand how they do it.

Consider a beer like Old Rasputin, a great Russian Imperial Stout from North Coast Brewing. Its is only aged 4 weeks before release.

If a random HBTer were to brew a clone of this beer, I bet they would recommend aging it for months and months because its "big" or to "let the flavors meld" or some such thing.

Why is that? Is the homebrewer wrong? I don't know. There might be some merit to it. But increasingly I believe that homebrewers [thread=36976]age their beer warmer longer[/thread] in order to let off-flavors and other flaws mellow with time.

Then again, some beers really do need prolonged aging. Why?

My postings in threads like this one are just a way for me to organise my thoughts on this topic. Right now I'm really interested in fermentation, and how I can make better, faster ferments at home.

 

[BierMuncher]

Commercial brewers (good ones, anyway) don't seem to have this problem and I'd like to understand how they do it.

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation. Think about how fast fermentation is when you toss fresh wort onto a yeast cake that just got racked off.

The other thing is the infusion of O2 into the line as the beer is transferred from kettle to fermenter (post heat exchanger).

Now…about 10-12 days into the fermentation, turn that magic dial on your fermenter down to 30 degrees and let sit for 4-5 more days. Transfer to a secondary with a carbing stone on the bottom and take…not 10 days…but 2-3 hours to finish bringing the carb levels up.

Seems that all of the Home Brew factors that require extensive time have been dealt with:

1. Fermentation can take up to 48 hours to begin and up to a week to complete the fermention (Not if you’re oxygenating the wort effectively and pitching huge amounts of active yeast. Plus there’s no “wake up” time-lag for this yeast)
2. Yeast need time to clean up after themselves (Pitching super sized batches of highly active yeast would shorten this period down considerably)
3. Takes time for beer to clear (I believe these large conicals they use contribute to speedier fermentations and yeast fall out. Add to that the 30 degree crash chill and the whirlfloc they add to the boil)
4. Priming or force carbing beer takes days…weeks (by partially carbing the beer through pressurizing the fermenters…85% of the carbonation is completed during the fermentation stage. Using a carb stone in the 30 degree bright tank translates to “hours” instead of “days” to carbonate.
5. Big beers need months to mature (This is not a big beer brewery. The biggest they have is probably their Goats Breath Bock at 6.5% or Smoked Porter at 5.5%)

It should be noted that their Smoked Porter won a Gold Medal in 2004 at the Great American Beer Festival and their wheat took Bronze in 2005.

 

[mrfocus]

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation.

I just want a clarification, is the 5 gallons only the slurry, after they have removed the fermented wort?

 

[olllllo]

I'm not a big fan of DogFish's beers (can somebody do a Folger's Switch with their yeasts to something more attenuative?), but they've always struck me as a company that, on the whole, was very pro-homebrewer. Doesn't mean that they don't employ the occassional ******.

25.

That seems to be the maximum of employees that you can add to a company before it is a mortal lock that your next employee is an *******. You may get your first ******* before 25, in fact it may be employee #1 , but you cannot have any organization with more than 25 employees without getting a ******.

 

[rdwj]

I certainly have no cause to defend a jerk with that attitude and the lack of sense to show it so broadly. However, I've had the privilege to chat with Sam Calgione when he came down to speak at the Dixie Cup a few years ago, and did not seem to share that attitude in any way.


TL

Ya, I guess I shouldn't let one ass cloud my opinion of the company, but those things tend to piss me off. The funny thing is that most home brewers I know tend to consider their knowledge of the process limited and always want to learn more.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation. Think about how fast fermentation is when you toss fresh wort onto a yeast cake that just got racked off.

The other thing is the infusion of O2 into the line as the beer is transferred from kettle to fermenter (post heat exchanger).

Now…about 10-12 days into the fermentation, turn that magic dial on your fermenter down to 30 degrees and let sit for 4-5 more days. Transfer to a secondary with a carbing stone on the bottom and take…not 10 days…but 2-3 hours to finish bringing the carb levels up.

Seems that all of the Home Brew factors that require extensive time have been dealt with:

1. Fermentation can take up to 48 hours to begin and up to a week to complete the fermention (Not if you’re oxygenating the wort effectively and pitching huge amounts of active yeast. Plus there’s no “wake up” time-lag for this yeast)
2. Yeast need time to clean up after themselves (Pitching super sized batches of highly active yeast would shorten this period down considerably)
3. Takes time for beer to clear (I believe these large conicals they use contribute to speedier fermentations and yeast fall out. Add to that the 30 degree crash chill and the whirlfloc they add to the boil)
4. Priming or force carbing beer takes days…weeks (by partially carbing the beer through pressurizing the fermenters…85% of the carbonation is completed during the fermentation stage. Using a carb stone in the 30 degree bright tank translates to “hours” instead of “days” to carbonate.
5. Big beers need months to mature (This is not a big beer brewery. The biggest they have is probably their Goats Breath Bock at 6.5% or Smoked Porter at 5.5%)

It should be noted that their Smoked Porter won a Gold Medal in 2004 at the Great American Beer Festival and their wheat took Bronze in 2005.

But he had good point about the russian imperial. It doesn't need to clear, but it's ready to go in 4 weeks, wheras a homebrewer would need to give it months. What makes the flavors meld so quickly, what procedure do the professionals have to do this? I might have to start a new thread I was think of a couple days ago, this conversation just reminded me of it.

 

[kinison_fan]

Ya, I guess I shouldn't let one ass cloud my opinion of the company, but those things tend to piss me off. The funny thing is that most home brewers I know tend to consider their knowledge of the process limited and always want to learn more.

Exactly. That was were I was coming from (limited knowledge), thought it was a great opportunity, etc. I'm in my 40's, been brewing for 15+ years off and on, recently back into it pretty heavily after a few year hiatus. This guy might have been out of his 20's, but pretty poor attitude.

Ah well, F him. I wont hold it against Dog Fish Head. I was going to leave the brewery name off, but didn't want someone to assume it was Victory-since they are right here in Downingtown, PA.