Hangin out at my local Micro Bewery (Some Take Aways)

[Ize]

That's very cool BM. IIRC I sent Pirate Ale a bomber of their Smoked Porter last Christmas. An all-around good beer if you ask me.

As for the guy from DFH, screw em'. I hate their 90 min IPA, but what the hell do I know.

Ize

 

[TexLaw]

What a prick. You'd think that a person in that profession would realize that we're their core market segment. DFH's beers are good, but I'd be lying if I said your words won't cross my mind next time I'm selecting beers to purchase.

I certainly have no cause to defend a jerk with that attitude and the lack of sense to show it so broadly. However, I've had the privilege to chat with Sam Calgione when he came down to speak at the Dixie Cup a few years ago, and did not seem to share that attitude in any way.


TL

 

[the_bird]

I'm not a big fan of DogFish's beers (can somebody do a Folger's Switch with their yeasts to something more attenuative?), but they've always struck me as a company that, on the whole, was very pro-homebrewer. Doesn't mean that they don't employ the occassional ******.

 

[Beerthoven]

Key to banging out brews fast that is. I'm sure the beers are great but they're going the extra mile because they're running a biz. I think we can generally wait the extra week.

You're missing the point. The idea is not to bang out brews fast, but to understand the brewing process better.

I happily give my beer time to clear and carbonate but it bothers me when I taste something I don't like in one of my beers and think "Well, maybe another week or two and this will get better."

I want to make beer without flaws that need time to mellow out in the first place.

Commercial brewers (good ones, anyway) don't seem to have this problem and I'd like to understand how they do it.

Consider a beer like Old Rasputin, a great Russian Imperial Stout from North Coast Brewing. Its is only aged 4 weeks before release.

If a random HBTer were to brew a clone of this beer, I bet they would recommend aging it for months and months because its "big" or to "let the flavors meld" or some such thing.

Why is that? Is the homebrewer wrong? I don't know. There might be some merit to it. But increasingly I believe that homebrewers [thread=36976]age their beer warmer longer[/thread] in order to let off-flavors and other flaws mellow with time.

Then again, some beers really do need prolonged aging. Why?

My postings in threads like this one are just a way for me to organise my thoughts on this topic. Right now I'm really interested in fermentation, and how I can make better, faster ferments at home.

 

[BierMuncher]

Commercial brewers (good ones, anyway) don't seem to have this problem and I'd like to understand how they do it.

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation. Think about how fast fermentation is when you toss fresh wort onto a yeast cake that just got racked off.

The other thing is the infusion of O2 into the line as the beer is transferred from kettle to fermenter (post heat exchanger).

Now…about 10-12 days into the fermentation, turn that magic dial on your fermenter down to 30 degrees and let sit for 4-5 more days. Transfer to a secondary with a carbing stone on the bottom and take…not 10 days…but 2-3 hours to finish bringing the carb levels up.

Seems that all of the Home Brew factors that require extensive time have been dealt with:

1. Fermentation can take up to 48 hours to begin and up to a week to complete the fermention (Not if you’re oxygenating the wort effectively and pitching huge amounts of active yeast. Plus there’s no “wake up” time-lag for this yeast)
2. Yeast need time to clean up after themselves (Pitching super sized batches of highly active yeast would shorten this period down considerably)
3. Takes time for beer to clear (I believe these large conicals they use contribute to speedier fermentations and yeast fall out. Add to that the 30 degree crash chill and the whirlfloc they add to the boil)
4. Priming or force carbing beer takes days…weeks (by partially carbing the beer through pressurizing the fermenters…85% of the carbonation is completed during the fermentation stage. Using a carb stone in the 30 degree bright tank translates to “hours” instead of “days” to carbonate.
5. Big beers need months to mature (This is not a big beer brewery. The biggest they have is probably their Goats Breath Bock at 6.5% or Smoked Porter at 5.5%)

It should be noted that their Smoked Porter won a Gold Medal in 2004 at the Great American Beer Festival and their wheat took Bronze in 2005.

 

[mrfocus]

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation.

I just want a clarification, is the 5 gallons only the slurry, after they have removed the fermented wort?

 

[olllllo]

I'm not a big fan of DogFish's beers (can somebody do a Folger's Switch with their yeasts to something more attenuative?), but they've always struck me as a company that, on the whole, was very pro-homebrewer. Doesn't mean that they don't employ the occassional ******.

25.

That seems to be the maximum of employees that you can add to a company before it is a mortal lock that your next employee is an *******. You may get your first ******* before 25, in fact it may be employee #1 , but you cannot have any organization with more than 25 employees without getting a ******.

 

[rdwj]

I certainly have no cause to defend a jerk with that attitude and the lack of sense to show it so broadly. However, I've had the privilege to chat with Sam Calgione when he came down to speak at the Dixie Cup a few years ago, and did not seem to share that attitude in any way.


TL

Ya, I guess I shouldn't let one ass cloud my opinion of the company, but those things tend to piss me off. The funny thing is that most home brewers I know tend to consider their knowledge of the process limited and always want to learn more.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation. Think about how fast fermentation is when you toss fresh wort onto a yeast cake that just got racked off.

The other thing is the infusion of O2 into the line as the beer is transferred from kettle to fermenter (post heat exchanger).

Now…about 10-12 days into the fermentation, turn that magic dial on your fermenter down to 30 degrees and let sit for 4-5 more days. Transfer to a secondary with a carbing stone on the bottom and take…not 10 days…but 2-3 hours to finish bringing the carb levels up.

Seems that all of the Home Brew factors that require extensive time have been dealt with:

1. Fermentation can take up to 48 hours to begin and up to a week to complete the fermention (Not if you’re oxygenating the wort effectively and pitching huge amounts of active yeast. Plus there’s no “wake up” time-lag for this yeast)
2. Yeast need time to clean up after themselves (Pitching super sized batches of highly active yeast would shorten this period down considerably)
3. Takes time for beer to clear (I believe these large conicals they use contribute to speedier fermentations and yeast fall out. Add to that the 30 degree crash chill and the whirlfloc they add to the boil)
4. Priming or force carbing beer takes days…weeks (by partially carbing the beer through pressurizing the fermenters…85% of the carbonation is completed during the fermentation stage. Using a carb stone in the 30 degree bright tank translates to “hours” instead of “days” to carbonate.
5. Big beers need months to mature (This is not a big beer brewery. The biggest they have is probably their Goats Breath Bock at 6.5% or Smoked Porter at 5.5%)

It should be noted that their Smoked Porter won a Gold Medal in 2004 at the Great American Beer Festival and their wheat took Bronze in 2005.

But he had good point about the russian imperial. It doesn't need to clear, but it's ready to go in 4 weeks, wheras a homebrewer would need to give it months. What makes the flavors meld so quickly, what procedure do the professionals have to do this? I might have to start a new thread I was think of a couple days ago, this conversation just reminded me of it.

 

[kinison_fan]

Ya, I guess I shouldn't let one ass cloud my opinion of the company, but those things tend to piss me off. The funny thing is that most home brewers I know tend to consider their knowledge of the process limited and always want to learn more.

Exactly. That was were I was coming from (limited knowledge), thought it was a great opportunity, etc. I'm in my 40's, been brewing for 15+ years off and on, recently back into it pretty heavily after a few year hiatus. This guy might have been out of his 20's, but pretty poor attitude.

Ah well, F him. I wont hold it against Dog Fish Head. I was going to leave the brewery name off, but didn't want someone to assume it was Victory-since they are right here in Downingtown, PA.

 

[Beerthoven]

I’m going to bank on the huge (highly active) yeast pitches (5-gallon minimum) as a big part of the equation. Think about how fast fermentation is when you toss fresh wort onto a yeast cake that just got racked off.

The other thing is the infusion of O2 into the line as the beer is transferred from kettle to fermenter (post heat exchanger).

Now…about 10-12 days into the fermentation, turn that magic dial on your fermenter down to 30 degrees and let sit for 4-5 more days. Transfer to a secondary with a carbing stone on the bottom and take…not 10 days…but 2-3 hours to finish bringing the carb levels up.

Seems that all of the Home Brew factors that require extensive time have been dealt with:

1. Fermentation can take up to 48 hours to begin and up to a week to complete the fermention (Not if you’re oxygenating the wort effectively and pitching huge amounts of active yeast. Plus there’s no “wake up” time-lag for this yeast)
2. Yeast need time to clean up after themselves (Pitching super sized batches of highly active yeast would shorten this period down considerably)
3. Takes time for beer to clear (I believe these large conicals they use contribute to speedier fermentations and yeast fall out. Add to that the 30 degree crash chill and the whirlfloc they add to the boil)
4. Priming or force carbing beer takes days…weeks (by partially carbing the beer through pressurizing the fermenters…85% of the carbonation is completed during the fermentation stage. Using a carb stone in the 30 degree bright tank translates to “hours” instead of “days” to carbonate.
5. Big beers need months to mature (This is not a big beer brewery. The biggest they have is probably their Goats Breath Bock at 6.5% or Smoked Porter at 5.5%)

It should be noted that their Smoked Porter won a Gold Medal in 2004 at the Great American Beer Festival and their wheat took Bronze in 2005.

Thanks, BM, I think you make some great points. Maybe I'm over-thinking this. I just think that homebrewers can learn a lot by understanding how the micros do things.

 

[BierMuncher]

I just want a clarification, is the 5 gallons only the slurry, after they have removed the fermented wort?

It's teh slurry that exists on the bottom of the conical fermenter. The advantage of a conical, is that you have a valve at the bottom that allows you to drain off active yeast from the bottom of the fermenter without draining off wort.

 

[BierMuncher]

They do 90 minute boils on all their recipes to insure there are no DMS issues...even though they use Briess 2-Row as their go-to base malt.

The other thing is they don't feel they've acheived a good brew session if they didn't come close to a boil-over in that big kettle at least a couple of times.

They really boil the sh!t out of their wort. Say it aids in clarity and cleaner taste.