H.e.l.p

[TheBrewGoose]

I have been brewing for a year now and i brew 2-5 batches a month and im ashamed to admit that most of them go bad in the bottle around the 3 week mark. Sure some batches have been weird but some have had hot alcohol taste and just like a weird bitter, almost sour aftertaste. Dont get me wrong some batches have been really good and awesome. But 90% of the time i get gushers, even if i put small amount of sugar - 100g per 20L.

After 10 days i always taste the beer to see if everything is good. Always tastes awesome.

I always clean very well. Sometime soak in chlorine and rinse well then starsan. I ferment in the garage and i have no idea what the temp is (cold-ish).

So a few questions.
1. What is hot alcohol taste and how can i avoid it?
2. Should i continue to ferment in my cold-ish garage or move it inside the house?
3. No chlorine?
4. How can i prevent gushers? I clean everything well so i dont think thats a problem. And i know the sugar isnt too much and the fermentation is always finished. No matter what i do after 3 weeks the gushers start.


Cheers!

 

[BigMack]

If you're getting gushers without over priming the bottles it is one of two things.

1. Fermentation isn't finished when you bottle.

2. Infection.

I would really thoroughly review your sanitation process. That really sounds like an infection problem to me.

 

[TheBrewGoose]

If you're getting gushers without over priming the bottles it is one of two things.

1. Fermentation isn't finished when you bottle.

2. Infection.

I would really thoroughly review your sanitation process. That really sounds like an infection problem to me.

But im always really careful! I soak everything in star san for like 1-2 hours. Once i let it sit in hot chlorine-water for 3 hours, rinsed everything well, then star san soak.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Everything gets treated with Star San, inside and out, from the end of the boil until it goes in the bottle? Are you diluting it to the manufacturer's standards? Do you have any really old plastic equipment?

What's your procedure for determining how much sugar to add at bottling? What's your procedure for adding it?

Have you measured the gravity of a gusher and compared it to the FG you took before bottling?

 

[BigMack]

Star San only needs 1-2 minutes to sanitize something. Any longer than that isn't necessary, and could actually be your problem. If you notice the star san getting cloudy that means it is no longer effective at sterilizing something. Often it will even leave something of a film on anything soaking in it at that point. I would stop soaking for so long first of all.

 

[beergolf]

I agree with BigMack.

How long are you fermenting before bottling? Are you sure that fermentation is really finished. You mentioned a cool garage, so it could take longer to finish or if it gets cool enough it could stall. Then if you bottle then it could kick back up and cause the gushers.

But I think it sounds more like an infection because you mention off flavor like sour. I would get rid of anything post cool down like fermenter ( unless glass which can be cleaned) bottling bucket, auto siphon, hoses etc.

Try a batch in a new bucket and anything after that. Make sure it is fully fermented and bottle it up. That should cure the problem.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I would stop soaking for so long first of all.

Os stop soaking. Spray bottles of Star San are the best for most anything, outside of the inside of racking canes, tubing, and the like.

 

[Transamguy77]

Plus 1 to above, it definitely sounds like infection. How long are you fermenting for? Is there any kind of white film on the beer in the bottle? Is your garage damp?

I fought with a lacto infection for several months before I figured out that fermenting and bottling in my basement is where the infection was coming from. I had to start fermenting and bottling in a different part of my house, I have since moved and after a good strong bleach wash on everything I am infection free.

Edit: man I type slow, I was thinking I was post #3 so that is what I was basing my answer on.

 

[jekeane]

You likely have an infection somewhere in the bottling process. Bottling wands are often a problem spot. If beer aids is inyour plastic it's super difficult to get rid of. I would replace my plastic bottling equipment.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Strange bitter/bite/sour flavors combined with gushing bottles sounds very much like something wild is getting in your bottles to me.

That said, are you sure fermentation is complete before you bottle? Are you using a hydrometer to measure the start and finish gravity before you bottle?

You mention that the garage is cold. If we're talking about regularly at or below 60, then you're going to take a LONG time to get to final gravity

The hot alcohol taste and gushers could also be related to a stressed out yeast. If fermentation isn't complete, and then you bottle and move everything inside, then you are getting a high-pressure high-temperature ferment.

 

[Calder]

Hot chlorine doesn't do anything - The chlorine evaporates. You need to use cold bleach solution.

Something is up. Gushers indicates infection or not finished. Sour indicates infection.

- Replace ALL plastic tubing - almost impossible to properly clean if infected,

- Soak everything else in a mild bleach solution for a couple of days (~1 tablespoon to a gallon). Buckets, fermenters, bottle fillers, ridgid tubing, etc. Beach degrades very quickly, so don't sanitize a fermenter for couple of days and then re-use it for a bucket ..... etc. Make it fresh each time.

- Rinse every thing in hot water to get rid of the chlorine, and then sanitize with starsan.

- Ferment in garage seems to be best for the beer, but bring beer in to room temp for a few days prior to packaging to ensure it is finished.

- Obviously make sure bottles are clean and sanitized.

 

[msayler]

Re: sanitation - This is one of the most useful podcasts I've heard. I'd definitely recommend listening to it, especially if you're using bleach.

Basic Brewing Radio ft. Charlie Talley of 5 Star

This podcast episode changed the way I sanitize. Sorry to hear you're having trouble, hope you get it figured out! Also, +1 on possible partial fermentation... I'd be curious to see what kind of OG/FG you're getting.

 

[muels]

Thanks for the link. That was a good listen

 

[TheBrewGoose]

My beer has always finished fermenting, i take reading for 3-4 days and if it stays the same I bottle. Maybe the yeast starts a new fermentation after I bottle and that's what causing the gushers? But I also think it must be the plastic tubing, I havent bought a new one in more than a year. Im bottling 2 beers in a few days, and Im going to buy a new siphon and replace the bottling wand. Hope that will do!

 

[kombat]

Hot alcohol taste can also suggesting you're fermenting too warm.

How are you cleaning and sanitizing your bottles prior to bottling? Are you sanitizing the bottle caps, too?

 

[bbohanon]

As others have mentioned, its either not done fermenting or its an infection or a little of both.

I usually do the following and its served me well for all my batches:

- Replace all plastic hosing, bottling wands and racking canes (any hoses like racking hoses that touches the beer after it drops below 180deg) every year at least. No exception.

- Replace my plastic bucket fermenters at least once a year. No exceptions.

- Soak all my racking canes/hoses in hot oxy-free followed by a hot water rinse and SSan rinse after every use! Doing one of those "quick good-enough rinses" with tap water on these smaller parts and pieces is not the way to clean your gear! Store properly once clean and rinse again with SSan solution right before using this equipment again.

- Soak my bottles in HOT oxy-free for at least 3 hours (that previous beers crud sometimes needs time to come out of the bottom if its been there for a while and the bottles are not new).

- Rinse the bottles WELL with hot/warm water after the oxy-soak

- Run all the bottles through the dishwasher on heavy/sanitize cycle using Oxy-Free as the dishwasher soap

- Dunk the bottles COMPLETELY in SSan solution for at least 5 mins before finally bottling my beer.

- Soak the caps in SSan solution as well before using them for capping your brews.

- Soak my kegs in boiling hot water/Oxy-Free followed with a hot water rinse/SSan pressurized final rinse at least once every 6 months.

- Take apart all SS fittings on all my MT/BK/HLT once a year at least and soak them in hot water/oxy-free solution followed by a hot water rinse/SSan rinse. Anything with teflon tape gets crud/bacteria in it over time. If you have never done this you would be surprised at the crud that will come out of there.

- Use nothing abrasive in any of my plastic fermenters or plastic equipment. Only use a rag and the proper cleaning solution to clean those plastic buckets up! Also do not use scented dishwashing detergent..Trust me. I have a fellow brewer that I can taste the Dawn in his beer as he cleans up cheaply with scented dishwashing soap..ugh.

- Run hot oxy-free through my pumps for 15 mins after each brew along with a rinse/SSan wash. Pump crud can be an unseen issue.

- I do not touch my beer when it hits primary fermenter for at least 3 weeks at the right temperature to be sure its done fermenting. Never had a gusher following this rule.

- Keep any and all Beerstone build-up OUT of my BK..Beerstone is bad and can lead to off tastes. Clean that crap off!


Cutting corners with cleanliness and beer will lead to your end product being lackluster. Make sure you are cleaning everything top to bottom EVERY time you brew..
Cleaning is one of those not-so-fun parts of brewing, but can lead to a whole mess of problems if you don't do it right...Also making sure you are not impatient with fermentation is key.

 

[physics911]

According to your original post, you have brewed somewhere between 27 and 57 batches in the last year, with between 14 and 29 turning into gushers. Is this the first time you have solicited help from others? If not, what was suggested then, and what have you tried on your own?

Others have pointed out this sounds a lot like an infection, or bottled before FG. Regarding FG, you noted that you take multiple readings to confirm FG, but if it is in a cool environment, there may not be enough change in a 24 hour period of time, and/or the measurement error, may appear like it has finished. Are the beers finishing at the estimated FG, e.g. recipe suggests 1.008 and you are hitting that, or are you saying 1.013 is FG because you got that a couple days in a row?

Also, what is different about the beers which turn out OK?

 

[Vex3521]

When checking gravity are you taking temperature and adjusting for that as well? With the sour I agree it's most likely infection, would replace any plastic as mentioned above. Great listen for that link thank you!

 

[foam_top]

Re: sanitation - This is one of the most useful podcasts I've heard. I'd definitely recommend listening to it, especially if you're using bleach.

Basic Brewing Radio ft. Charlie Talley of 5 Star

This podcast episode changed the way I sanitize. Sorry to hear you're having trouble, hope you get it figured out! Also, +1 on possible partial fermentation... I'd be curious to see what kind of OG/FG you're getting.

I keep seeing this podcast shared on homebrew sites but the lack of information makes me feel uneasy which is why I have avoided the mentioned sanitation solution.

If mixed improperly you can create a toxic gas. Some say it could be fatal where others say it's just a "knock-out" gas like that of chloroform. Another thing that bothers me is that the solution relies on ph levels but any water source can already start at a different ph. Also, some tap water already has varying degrees of chlorine, thus changing the final ppm of the solution. This also assumes that your bleach solution is 5% hypochlorite, however, mine is actually closer to %8. And the biggest thing is that I've never actually heard someone say they have tried it.

Anyways, I would love to try this solution but until these questions are better documented I don't feel safe. I'm confident that I understand the procedure and the ratio but all the stuff I mentioned above keeps me away.

 

[BigMack]

I keep seeing this podcast shared on homebrew sites but the lack of information makes me feel uneasy which is why I have avoided the mentioned sanitation solution.

If mixed improperly you can create a toxic gas. Some say it could be fatal where others say it's just a "knock-out" gas like that of chloroform. Another thing that bothers me is that the solution relies on ph levels but any water source can already start at a different ph. Also, some tap water already has varying degrees of chlorine, thus changing the final ppm of the solution. This also assumes that your bleach solution is 5% hypochlorite, however, mine is actually closer to %8. And the biggest thing is that I've never actually heard someone say they have tried it.

Anyways, I would love to try this solution but until these questions are better documented I don't feel safe. I'm confident that I understand the procedure and the ratio but all the stuff I mentioned above keeps me away.

Star San also relies on PH to sanitize things. So why is that an issue?

 

[TheBrewGoose]

According to your original post, you have brewed somewhere between 27 and 57 batches in the last year, with between 14 and 29 turning into gushers. Is this the first time you have solicited help from others? If not, what was suggested then, and what have you tried on your own?

Others have pointed out this sounds a lot like an infection, or bottled before FG. Regarding FG, you noted that you take multiple readings to confirm FG, but if it is in a cool environment, there may not be enough change in a 24 hour period of time, and/or the measurement error, may appear like it has finished. Are the beers finishing at the estimated FG, e.g. recipe suggests 1.008 and you are hitting that, or are you saying 1.013 is FG because you got that a couple days in a row?

Also, what is different about the beers which turn out OK?

Ive been reading a lot on this site and trying different things, first change was making sure it was done fermenting for 4 days, then trying to sanitize everything to hell.

And i do almost nothing differently when i dont get gushers. And when i dont get one i try to do everything exactly the same with the next batch but still get a gusher. Thats why im so flabbergasted.

And i am cleaning everything. Bottles and caps. Ive tried to soak in only chlorine then rinse, soak in chlorine-rinse-starsan-, only star san but nothing works.

What about keeping the bottles cold in the fridge for 48 hours prior to opening? Usually i put it in, then open it as soon as its cold.

 

[foam_top]

Star San also relies on PH to sanitize things. So why is that an issue?

I was referring to the ph range where bleach and vinegar start to gas. As far as I know that's not a concern with Starsan. But yes, the ph level will change the contact time for both solutions too.

I'm not arguing that a homemade sanitizer is wrong, I'm just not brave enough to try it. If others are willing to educate me and put my concerns at ease I would appreciate it.

 

[TheBrewGoose]

I opened a 2 month old zombie dust clone. Half the glass was only thick foam, waaaaaay to much but the beer itself wasnt over carbonated. Then there was a good hop flavor but the bitterness was just bad and a long weird bitter aftertaste. Almost yeasty, bready, sour of some kind. Really weird.

 

[beergolf]

And i am cleaning everything. Bottles and caps. Ive tried to soak in only chlorine then rinse, soak in chlorine-rinse-starsan-, only star san but nothing works.

The things you mention are to sanitize, but you cannot sanitize something that is not clean. Do you use something like Oxiclean or PBW to clean your equipment before you sanitize? Soak in either of these to clean, rinse and then a quick coating of starsan and you should be good.

 

[msayler]

I keep seeing this podcast shared on homebrew sites but the lack of information makes me feel uneasy which is why I have avoided the mentioned sanitation solution.

If mixed improperly you can create a toxic gas. Some say it could be fatal where others say it's just a "knock-out" gas like that of chloroform. Another thing that bothers me is that the solution relies on ph levels but any water source can already start at a different ph. Also, some tap water already has varying degrees of chlorine, thus changing the final ppm of the solution. This also assumes that your bleach solution is 5% hypochlorite, however, mine is actually closer to %8. And the biggest thing is that I've never actually heard someone say they have tried it.

Anyways, I would love to try this solution but until these questions are better documented I don't feel safe. I'm confident that I understand the procedure and the ratio but all the stuff I mentioned above keeps me away.

I'll preface this response by saying that I absolutely hate the smell of bleach, so you'd never catch me using it to sanitize unless I was in a serious sanitation crisis, like discovering on brew day that I don't have any StarSan. That being said, it's still a valid chemical to use to sanitize.

From what I read on the webternets, mixing laundry bleach (5-6% concentration) in water at a ratio of 25:1 gives you somewhere in the range of 2000ppm FAC (source). The water quality report from my town lists the range of allowed chloramines as 1min/4max ppm, with ours being 3.2 - a tiny fraction that would not significantly affect the 2000ish ppm concentration in a 25:1 solution (source).

As far as being safe, as long as you're not being dumb and directly mixing undiluted bleach and vinegar, you're fine. If a triad of pimply faced teenagers can mix bleach and water at an even higher concentration (128oz water / 8oz bleach, 12:1) and then add vinegar without gassing themselves, I'm pretty sure homebrewers can figure it out, too. For what it's worth, their experiment shows that the vinegar/bleach solution indeed does a better job at microbe control (if you don't want to watch the whole awkward thing).

If I ever find some spare time to do something of which I will hate the smell, I'll mix up some acidic bleach solution and shoot a YouTube video of me not dying.

 

[Calder]

I'll preface this response by saying that I absolutely hate the smell of bleach, so you'd never catch me using it to sanitize unless I was in a serious sanitation crisis, like discovering on brew day that I don't have any StarSan. That being said, it's still a valid chemical to use to sanitize.

From what I read on the webternets, mixing laundry bleach (5-6% concentration) in water at a ratio of 25:1 gives you somewhere in the range of 2000ppm FAC (source). The water quality report from my town lists the range of allowed chloramines as 1min/4max ppm, with ours being 3.2 - a tiny fraction that would not significantly affect the 2000ish ppm concentration in a 25:1 solution (source).

As far as being safe, as long as you're not being dumb and directly mixing undiluted bleach and vinegar, you're fine. If a triad of pimply faced teenagers can mix bleach and water at an even higher concentration (128oz water / 8oz bleach, 12:1) and then add vinegar without gassing themselves, I'm pretty sure homebrewers can figure it out, too. For what it's worth, their experiment shows that the vinegar/bleach solution indeed does a better job at microbe control (if you don't want to watch the whole awkward thing).

If I ever find some spare time to do something of which I will hate the smell, I'll mix up some acidic bleach solution and shoot a YouTube video of me not dying.

Per Clorox web site, all you need is 1 tbsp per gallon and 2 minutes contact time to sanitize. Very little bleach smell, and it works out about 200 ppm.

 

[Lemon]

Are you pitching yeast at a good temp? If you pitch too hot you can kill good yeast & get a slow ferment and off flavors.
Pitch at the right temp, and let it sit a while before bottling.

 

[foam_top]

Per Clorox web site, all you need is 1 tbsp per gallon and 2 minutes contact time to sanitize. Very little bleach smell, and it works out about 200 ppm.

The goal is to get the dilution to 80ppm (if I remember correctly) so that it's a no-rinse sanitizer. But at that ph alone will increase the contact time which is why the vinegar is added to drop the alkalinity.

 

[k-moe]

Please DO NOT mix chlorine bleach with ANY acid at home EVER!
Some very light reading for you: http://chemistry.about.com/od/toxicchemicals/a/Mixing-Bleach-And-Vinegar.htm

You may not be dying, but you are risking permanant damage to your lungs. Even at low exposure rates you can do harm that can lead to permanant breathing problems.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3136961/