grains in the primary

[licenseless]

so... i have been talking to a few beer friends of mine for awhile about making a beer that has grains in the primary fermintation...

the reson for it... was just to see what some of beers tasted like a good century or three ago...

back in those days they used to boil the grains in with the beer... and some times did fermentation with grains still involved...

so... i was thinking...

if i make a regular english brown ale... but add some crystal malt to the primary... i know i am risking contamination... so i am trying to think of a way to remove that with out boiling them to release tannins

any thouths on this...

 

[gr8shandini]

I'm not an authority on beer history, but I know that the idea of lautering goes back at least 300 years. I don't know what they did prior to that, but you'd be looking at something without hops that barely resembles the beer we know now. Adding crystal malt to your primary might be an interesting experiment, but it's not going to tell you anything about what beers used to taste like. If that's what you're after, do a search for gruit and / or many of the recipes from colonial days that are still floating around.

By the way, from what I heard, grain husks are filled with all kind of nasty molds and bacteria. I'd say your pretty much assuring that you'll have an infection if you just throw some in raw.

 

[licenseless]

so... what would you suggest doing to wash the grains...

cause that really is my biggest concern... but if i boil the grains im pretty much destened for failure

 

[licenseless]

when i say destined for failure... i mean im pretty much just going to end up with boiled husks and thats not good

 

[BainbridgeBrewer]

I'd have to agree with gr8shandini. Lautering has been around for a long long time. If you are trying to figure out how to seperate your mash from your extract in a semi-old fashioned way before they had copper manifolds and Igloo coolers you could just use a Brew In A Bag method. We've been able to weave for a long time too. Then you can sparge through the bag if you want to wash the grain.

Grains in the primary will almost certainly lead to infection. And boiling them is not a good idea either.

 

[licenseless]

i guess what i am trying to do... is create the most unfiltered beer i can make... with the most grainiest taste i can get out of it... something that would be more like a broth of a beer... and after reading... and realizing that all i am doing is opening up for more tannins and leaving risk of contamination... i have to find another way to give it more of a grain taste...

i guess i should explain more...

i like the taste of mash... if done right... it tastes like a very sweet tea... and a good one if your doing a rich ale...

but a lot of that full body flavor goes away during the primary and secondary fermination... when you remove the sugar and add alcohol... plus other proteins tend to fall out... if using whirfloc tablets...

so it becomes a bit more empty... and looses what i like about it...

now i have done many beers with out using a clearing solution such as irish moss or tablets...

but i still dont believe that it tastes the same as what i like about a good mash or wart flavor... so in my mind... i was thinking that what i was missing was grains... and maybe adding them to the primary or secondary if i could figure out a way to sterilize them (thats what i am mainly looking for in this thread) with out boiling them ... then i would be good to go... to test this out and see how it works...

i have even gone as far as thinking about a UV bath hahahaha... but that wont garuantee no contamination...

and just adding the grains to water and boiling it and adding it to the secondary or primary is just going to make more stronger beer hahahah

but if any one knows of a better way to go about getting that more raw grain flavor... or know of something else i can add to the secondary or primary to give it that more raw flavor... i am open for suggestions...

cause the only thing i can think of is like nuts or hazzle nut or something along those lines

 

[ciphin78]

I wonder if sticking them in the microwave for a few minutes would kill everything bad...

 

[licenseless]

I wonder if sticking them in the microwave for a few minutes would kill everything bad...

i kid you not... i thought about that... or even just roasting them a little bit in the oven at 220 degrees...

im thinking roasting my own grains is the only option i have to keep them from contaminating the beer

 

[gr8shandini]

OK. Now I think I see what you're going for, but I think you can get there using "standard" techniques.

If you want to increase maltiness, use more grain, fewer hops, higher mash temps, and a more flocculant yeast. You also might want to experiment with some specialty grains like biscuit or aromatic malts.

If it's the body and mouthfeel you're after, try using some unmalted grains like flaked oats, wheat, or barley. Also, try carbonating to a lower volume. For me, most beers go through a strange evolution while they're carbonating (I keg, so I can pull a little every couple of days while it's carbing up). Straight out of the fermenter, they start off thin and overly bitter. Then with just the slightest hint of carbonation, they get sweeter and heavier almost to the point of being syrupy. Then you get to the "sweet spot" where everything's perfectly balanced. Finally, when they're overcarbonated they taste dry, harsh, and thin.

If you've already tried all of those, and you're still not getting what you want, the "experimental" option I would try is early filtering / cold crashing to stop the fermenation at a relatively high FG, say 1.020-1.022. You'd have to compensate by making the beer pretty hoppy so that it doesn't get sickly sweet, but it would definitely give you some of that sweet wort flavor you're looking for.

 

[BainbridgeBrewer]

I'd agree with gr8shandini, higher mash, more grains, different specialty grains, you could even try a no sparge mash and just collect the first runnings.

 

[licenseless]

OK. Now I think I see what you're going for, but I think you can get there using "standard" techniques.

If you want to increase maltiness, use more grain, fewer hops, higher mash temps, and a more flocculant yeast. You also might want to experiment with some specialty grains like biscuit or aromatic malts.

If it's the body and mouthfeel you're after, try using some unmalted grains like flaked oats, wheat, or barley. Also, try carbonating to a lower volume. For me, most beers go through a strange evolution while they're carbonating (I keg, so I can pull a little every couple of days while it's carbing up). Straight out of the fermenter, they start off thin and overly bitter. Then with just the slightest hint of carbonation, they get sweeter and heavier almost to the point of being syrupy. Then you get to the "sweet spot" where everything's perfectly balanced. Finally, when they're overcarbonated they taste dry, harsh, and thin.

If you've already tried all of those, and you're still not getting what you want, the "experimental" option I would try is early filtering / cold crashing to stop the fermenation at a relatively high FG, say 1.020-1.022. You'd have to compensate by making the beer pretty hoppy so that it doesn't get sickly sweet, but it would definitely give you some of that sweet wort flavor you're looking for.

i like were you went with the idea of playing with carbonation...
might **** around with that... since i keg also...

but over the last day or so i have been reading up on how to roast my own grains hahahahaha... so i might still just try and roast up some grains over wood and see if that gives me a more malty bite and wood flavor too... something i found was really good in a german beer... cant remember the name... i just remember i was drunk when a buddy pulled it out of his fridge...

anyways... i am going to play with CO2... see if that does anything i like... what do you suggest... maybe down to about 10 psi... or less... or 12 ... any thoughts on how low you go with yours...

 

[rycov]

i think if you like the taste before its fermented then a good way to get some of that is high mash temp. it will leave you more unfermentable sugars. it won't taste exactly like unfermented wort ( but then if thats what you wanted you could just drink wort), but it might have more of the flavor (sweetness, maltiness) you are looking for.

 

[stolpsTDI]

Sounds to me like you need to look into decoction mashing.

 

[pjj2ba]

I have brewed a beer where I boiled the whole mash and then lautered AFTER the boil. As long as you pH is in the proper range, the tannins are not a problem. I was trying to see how much I could shorten the brew day. I only did a 20 min. boil so the bitterness was a bit low. It definitely had a slightly different taste. Not bad at all. Not up to my normal standards though.

 

[gr8shandini]

. . .

anyways... i am going to play with CO2... see if that does anything i like... what do you suggest... maybe down to about 10 psi... or less... or 12 ... any thoughts on how low you go with yours...

Depends on the style. Tubing is cheap, so I rigged up a bunch of lines for max pressures of 20, 12, and 9 psi. So something like a Hefeweizen might get 18 psi at 38 F, while a porter might get as low as 6 or 7 at the same temp. Just use the force carbonation charts and the BJCP guidelines for a ballpark of where to start for your style, then you can tweak it from there.