Grain Mill Heads Up!

[Rhoobarb]

Just read this on a local forum regarding a company called Monster Mills.

Take a look.

http://free90free.com/peshchat/viewtopic.php?t=820

 

[JnJ]

Wow that is crazy!

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Anyone have any additional insight on this?

I was about to preorder a monster mill, based largely on the reputation of crankandstein (awesome lifetime guarantee, etc), but if this turns out to be true I'm not so sure anymore.

I did email the monster mills guy to ask about the mills at one point a few days back, and the guy that responded was Fred Francis. But, googling it, I do see that both Don Obenauer and Fred Francis are commonly associated with Crankandstein, so I have no idea who to believe.

 

[Brewer3401]

When I bought mine 4+ years ago, I dealt with Fred. I thought he was the owner.

 

[Cheesefood]

Anyone have any additional insight on this?

I was about to preorder a monster mill, based largely on the reputation of crankandstein (awesome lifetime guarantee, etc), but if this turns out to be true I'm not so sure anymore.

I did email the monster mills guy to ask about the mills at one point a few days back, and the guy that responded was Fred Francis. But, googling it, I do see that both Don Obenauer and Fred Francis are commonly associated with Crankandstein, so I have no idea who to believe.

Whomever owns what, that Monster Mill looks nice.

 

[AGBrewer]

I just received my crankandstein a few days ago, one of the outstanding orders. The person I talked to after a few days of not hearing anything was Don. The website is Fred's as are the monster mills. I have never heard anything bad about Fred anywhere. Don is still selling the crankandstein. As far as Fred being underhanded about the deal, who knows what is really going on. They both look sweet to me. 68% to 85% with the new crankandstein

 

[brewt00l]

http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=81371

prb pulled from this thread w/o reference^

Ryan_PA shot me the link this morning

 

[Drunkensatyr]

Looks like the right time to finally p/u a mill!

 

[Funkenjaeger]

To cut to the chase, I think perhaps the most important post in that thread is from Fred Francis himself:
http://www.brewboard.com/index.php?showtopic=81371&pid=960625&mode=threaded&show=&st=#entry960625

If what he says is true, then (paraphrased)Fred ran the C&S business, Don did the manufacturing, then Don wanted to ditch Fred to sell his mills himself to make more money, so Fred found a new manufacturer.

So now the original company is sort of split into two chunks: Fred is the guy who was responsible for the good customer service and product guarantee and all that, and Don was the guy who was responsible for making the mills well in the first place.

Sounds like a big mess and largely a matter of opinion - who should own the company - the guy who runs the business, or the guy who makes the mills they sell?
But my 2 cents:
if Fred was responsible for running the entire business side of crankandstein, it seems to me that he sort of owned the company. In that case, the crankandstein name would seem to be his - but he's changing to 'monster', and Don will keep selling as crankandstein. I can see why Don would be pissed about the crankandstein website being used to sell monster mills, but that seems to only be a temporary thing and is really just a legal issue between the two of them, rather than something that the average consumer should care too much about.

In any case, I think that based on this info I would not feel "guilty" or anything about buying mills from either company based on this series of events. It seems that it wasn't so much of a one-sided backstabbing as it was made out to be, rather just a mess between a couple of feuding former business partners which happens every day. Most likely, the crankandstein domain name will eventually go back to Don and then the two companies will be completely separate and they can just compete on the open market. May the best mill win.

 

[Rhoobarb]

Man, what a mess. They both sound like real pices of work to me. And I don't know who to believe. It all sounds suspect.

 

[brewt00l]

Man, what a mess. They both sound like real pices of work to me. And I don't know who to believe. It all sounds suspect.

Agreed....and in turn, it make me want to check out the barley crusher a bit close if only to avoid this drama.

 

[Cheesefood]

Sounds like both of them are idiots.

First off, what he's doing is called "cybersquatting" and it's illegal. If he was drawing a paycheck from C&S, then he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name). If he gets sued, I guarantee he'll have to forfeit profits.

I can't imagine there's a ton of money to be made in the grain mill biz, so more than likely both of them are PWT.

Whatever. I got mine and I'm thrilled with it.

 

[BierMuncher]

In case you're at the point of basing you decision on customer service...Check This Out.

For those of you too "busy" to click...BC service was awesome. I'd encourage you to read.

Right out of the box and onto the bucket...nice:

 

[Funkenjaeger]

First off, what he's doing is called "cybersquatting" and it's illegal. If he was drawing a paycheck from C&S, then he was an employee or a contractor and therefore needs to respect their intellectual property (i.e. their brand name). If he gets sued, I guarantee he'll have to forfeit profits.

But who really OWNS the crankandstein name? If what Fred says is true, then he's the one that created and ran the company itself - and Don was only the manufacturer. I'm not a lawyer and don't know all the facts but from what I've read it doesn't seem obvious that Don should somehow automatically own the name when he wasn't running the business - and I suppose the whole thing is really up in the air because they didn't have a bunch of formal, legal contracts defining the company, just informal agreements. If anything, without concrete agreements, is it even clear that one of them should entirely own the business name? If they each have some partial right to it, then it seems they'd both be at fault to a degree, as they're both still using the name in some way.

Not trying to pick sides here, rather trying to point out that it's not that clear what exactly (if anything) either of them is doing wrong. I think saying one of them is doing something illegal is jumping to conclusions, without knowing for certain which one of them should own the crankandstein name. It seems to me that the whole thing is in the gray area and that neither one of them is completely innocent.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

Ordered the barley Crusher on Monday, delivered to me on Thursday, cracked grain on Friday, brewed on Saturday! :rockin:

 

[jdoiv]

I think the moral of this story is this. Always put business arrangements in writing.

That said, I'm a consumer. I'll pick the mill that I think will do the best job and offer me the options I want/need. The idea of a motorized monster mill at a reasonable price sounds pretty good to me. Can't wait to see what they come up with. I figure I have a couple more years left out of the mill I currently have, so I'm not in any rush.

 

[iamjonsharp]

Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...

 

[Funkenjaeger]

Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...

That also sounds like a reasonable plan... just wait until the dust settles and see how both companies turn out.

Unfortunately, I read somewhere (from someone who had both a BC and a C&S) that the 1.5" rollers on these mills did a "noticeably better" job at crushing without shredding the husks, than the 1.25" rollers on the barley crusher... I don't even know how true that is, but it's stuck in my head. Maybe if someone with experience with both mills can convince me otherwise I'll take that advice and steer clear of both of these quarreling companies.

 

[Cookiebaggs]

Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...

I'm sure both will produce quality mills. However, I would think Monster Mill might be at a slight disadvantage because they will now need to find a machine shop to crank out the parts seeing as the Crankandstein builder forged out on his own.

 

[Ryan_PA]

It is like watching my parents divorce all over again...

Dude, this is dumb. If you decide to leave the partnership, which by his own posts Fred did, you cannot take the name with you. It was like the fat kid from the neighborhood who missed the touchdown pass and ran home with the ball. No class.

 

[e lo]

If you check the whois, Fred owns the crankandstein.com domain name:

http://www.whois.net/whois_new.cgi?d=crankandstein&tld=com

Not that clears much up, but he's not squatting: He owns the domain name free and clear, and can do whatever he wants with it...

 

[Bobby_M]

We have no idea if there was any official partnership in place. If Fred didn't trademarked the C&S brand or patent the design, he's got no leg to stand on. If it was an official partnership, any one of the partners leaving would force dissolution of the legal entity unless otherwise accounted for in the written partnership agreement (probably wasn't). It's a lot of speculation but there will be plenty of people ready to buy the Monster Mill and report on the experience. I think when it comes to mills, the key is finding a manufacturer to work cheap. These things are labor intensive... ask Yuri.

 

[Brewer3401]

Yeah, how much money can you make selling these things. I'm assuming it's a part time business.
Not enough brewers to buy a ton of them, and only 1 guy making them would prevent a ton of them being built. Double whammy.

 

[jdoiv]

We have no idea if there was any official partnership in place. If Fred didn't trademarked the C&S brand or patent the design, he's got no leg to stand on. If it was an official partnership, any one of the partners leaving would force dissolution of the legal entity unless otherwise accounted for in the written partnership agreement (probably wasn't). It's a lot of speculation but there will be plenty of people ready to buy the Monster Mill and report on the experience. I think when it comes to mills, the key is finding a manufacturer to work cheap. These things are labor intensive... ask Yuri.

Fred's post on the other board seems to suggest that there wasn't a written agreement, just a handshake. He also claims to be the one that came up with the name crankandstein. Seems like it is a bit dubious as to who "owns" what.

Moral of the story: Always put business arrangements in writing.

 

[Brewer3401]

Maybe some rich azzhole will come out with 10" rollers and sell them for $ 50.00
Don't look at me.

 

[DSean]

Yikes. Sounds like staying away from both Crankandstein and Monster Mill is the best idea...

Actually, it'll probably mean that they'll start competing on price more and the mills will end up cheaper. Especially if they want to drive each other out of business. Then maybe I can get one.

As others have said - don't let your money rest on a handshake.

 

[RadicalEd]

Reading one of the posts, it wasn't Fred who left the agreement, but rather Don who decided he didn't need Fred (at least according to Fred). Doesn't that mean that Don left the agreement?

If that is truly the case, then I think that the seller and distributer gets the name; the manufacturer was just the OEM. By leaving the agreement the manufacturer gave up the rights to it.

But by Fred's own words he won't be renewing the .com, so it doesn't sound like it's going to be a permanent thing anyway. By the time the suits resolve this thing it's likely that the website will have already defaulted.

 

[mr x]

Sounds like a good case for Judge Judy.

 

[TWilson]

Fred stated that Don created/manufactured the mill and came up with the name Crankandstein. Fred just owns the domain for crankandstein.com. As far as the ownership of the brand name, by Fred's own admission, it should stay with Don in the absence of a formal agreement. By all accounts, it has. However, Fred owns the domain name and is free to do with it as he chooses. Fred isn't the first person, and won't be the last, to own a domain name for a product/company that he is not associated with any longer, or in some cases never was. Good luck to both of these guys. I will be in the market for a mill in the near future and look forward to having a new player in the market. I want a solidly designed and built product. However, I want a reputation for quality customer service in case there ends up being a problem with the product.

 

[Cheesefood]

Doesn't matter who owns the website. If a new domain came out...say .beer, Miller could register budweiser.beer, but that doesn't mean they won't get in serious trouble.

Here's what it'll come down to: who owns the copyright for CrankAndStein? If they were smart enough to register the name, it's a non issue. If neither of them can prove to the court that they registered the business name under their name, it'll probably go to Fred. It's important to know how the business was structured. Is it an LLC, an Inc., or just some dude selling stuff and calling it a Crankandstein?

Again, this goes back to the problems associated with owning a business and having zero business experience. This is why you hire a business manager. They know to get a lawyer, a patent, copyright everything and CYA. Sure, it's costly, but not as costly as losing your brand name. Without a copyright, there's no way to prove which one came up with the name Crankandstein.

Important lesson to learn here is:

1. Don't hire people on a handshake.
2. If you have a good product, invest in protecting it.
3. If you don't know how to manage a business, hire someone to manage it for you.
4. Don't piss off your top sales dog.