Grain mill cost recovery

[Mer-man]

Hi folks

I was looking at getting a mill but the economics did not seem to work out for me. I brew 20L maybe twice a month. I looked into the savings per batch and for what a good mill would cost here in Copenhagen, the timeline for purchase cost recovery was laughable.

I think the real problem is that a MM3 with hopper here costs about 370USD, and if I buy a sack of grain my savings are 0.30USD per pound, when it costs about 0.80-1.00USD per pound.

Can some of you provide an idea of how big your grainbill is, and how much you estimate your savings (per pound or per batch)?

 

[m1k3]

Can some of you provide an idea of how big your grainbill is, and how much you estimate your savings (per pound or per batch)?

My grain bill is around 40 pounds for 15 gallon batches. But most of my beers are on the bigger side (1.060 to 1.080).

My local store will mill my grains (if I want) for no charge - regardless if I buy grain by the sack or the pound.

My efficiency is better with my own mill but the time to pay it off is still forever. The convenience of milling it myself is offset by milling it myself and then doing maintenance on the mill.

It is a good feeling to mill your own grain, so that is worth something.

 

[Dixon9717]

I'm contemplating buying a grain mill as well. I know I'll never recover the cost of a monster mill but the convenance of brewing when I want without pre planning is worth some of the expense.

 

[eelgerg]

my 2 cents - you won't ever recover the cost of the grain mill, not will you need to. You can sell most decent grain mills for over 1/2 the purchase price no matter the use - they don't really wear much IMO. You can make those savings of the 1/2 cost of the mill back depending on size/volume/gravity of the beers. Plus as mentioned it's more fun, more convenient for both milling and storing grain, and you can boost efficiency.

Just do it.

 

[Wreck99]

A mill is all about convenience and having control over your crush. It's a cost you won't recover, but it is so worth it

 

[imasickboy]

My batches run 8-15 pounds, usually. Difference in cost between my LHBS, and buying elsewhere in bulk is about $1 per pound. I bought a corona mill, so I recovered the cost after the first few batches.

But you'll be brewing for a very long time before you recover the cost of the MM3 with that small of a price difference in grain. Definitely look into buying bulk grain from somewhere else, the price may be significantly better.

 

[kombat]

For me, as others have mentioned, it's much more about convenience than cost recovery. I buy my grains in bulk, so they're uncrushed (otherwise I'd have to use them right away). Owning my own mill enables me to decide to brew spontaneously, should an opportunity arise unexpectedly, without having to drive to the LHBS, purchase the grain, and mill it on site.

 

[cubalz]

A mill is all about convenience and having control over your crush. It's a cost you won't recover, but it is so worth it

I agree 100%^ Honestly, I spent a fortune on an MM3 with hopper on a stainless steel stand and belt driven motor and would do it again in a heartbeat. Having ultimate crush control is totally worth it. To me, cost and payback on return for homebrew supplies is not a consideration. If it was, I would have stopped brewing 25 years ago and started buying 30 pack cubes of Genny Cream Ale.

 

[beernutz]

Hi folks

I was looking at getting a mill but the economics did not seem to work out for me. I brew 20L maybe twice a month. I looked into the savings per batch and for what a good mill would cost here in Copenhagen, the timeline for purchase cost recovery was laughable.

I think the real problem is that a MM3 with hopper here costs about 370USD, and if I buy a sack of grain my savings are 0.30USD per pound, when it costs about 0.80-1.00USD per pound.

Can some of you provide an idea of how big your grainbill is, and how much you estimate your savings (per pound or per batch)?

At an estimated 12lbs grain for each 20L batch you save $3.6USD/batch crushing your own grain. So your breakeven, assuming you continue brewing at your same rate and same batch size for a MM3 is ($370/$3.6)/(24 batches per year) = 4.3 years. So for that mill to make sense you would have to commit to brewing for at least another 4.3 years the way you do now at a minimum. That doesn't seem like such a gigantic commitment to me since I've been brewing since 1991 but I'm not you.

A few other things to consider are:
If you decide not to brew in the future I suspect that mill is going to have a pretty good resale value which will lower your cost of ownership.

MM3 is probably at or near the top of the price pyramid for consumer level grain mills and imo from reviews I've read is still a good value. However surely there are many other quality mills available at lower price points even in Denmark which would cut down on your initial investment and reduce your breakeven time.

I brewed five gallon (20L) batches for more than a decade but I've brewed ten gallon batches for even longer than that. My trusty 16 year old Schmedling MaltMill has never let me down in hundreds of batches. I only started using Beersmith in 2013 and have recorded about 70 10 gallon batches since then. Assuming 24 lbs/batch I would have needed only a $.23USD/lb differential between crushed and uncrushed grain to support a decision to have upgraded to a MM3 back then and that doesn't consider the resale value of my MaltMill. If my MaltMill ever becomes unusable as unlikely as that possibility appears to be at this point I'll probably upgrade to a MM3 just for the bling factor.

But to me as Wreck99 pointed out, a grain mill is about convenience and crush control. When I first bought my MaltMill I was getting my grain from a little HB shop far from my house that used a hand drill powered corona mill (things were different back in the day) which made the decision to buy a good roller mill not so tough. There wasn't really an internet as we know it today so that store was my only convenient option for grain as my first online order for homebrewing supplies was from beerbeerandmorebeer in 1999. Sorry, I'm monologuing...

</my $.02USD>

 

[bobo31]

Convenience, Freshness and control. Also you can lower your cost by going with the Monster Mill 2 with the upgraded rollers. MM3 would probably be overkill.

 

[augiedoggy]

I agree 100%^ Honestly, I spent a fortune on an MM3 with hopper on a stainless steel stand and belt driven motor and would do it again in a heartbeat. Having ultimate crush control is totally worth it. To me, cost and payback on return for homebrew supplies is not a consideration. If it was, I would have stopped brewing 25 years ago and started buying 30 pack cubes of Genny Cream Ale.

Hey! that cream ale was a staple in my family growing up... all the old man drank was locally made genny light! (which is actually Fyfe and drum so Ive been told)

I agree though with the mill comments... like much of the toys we buy for home brewing there always a cheaper way but the mill has its advantages... depending on your situation and grain availability options it may actually pay for itself... especially a cheap corona mill... they work.. just messy.

personally I upgraded from my corona to one of those chinese made 2 roll mills which are actually very well built and very reasonable priced... there is also an inexpensive mill made in the Netherlands which may be easier for you to obtain at a good price..I see them on our ebay site from time to time.

I agree the mm3 would be overkill for you... They are nice but not YOUR best option. Thats like recommending a jaguar to a person contemplating if buying a car could be worth it to them over continuing to take the bus....

 

[b-boy]

I save about 50% off my LHBS by buying in bulk and crushing my own grain. It also allows me to stockpile grain. I make a lot fewer trips to my LHBS than I used to. Uncrushed, the grain keeps for a long time.

I had a bad experience early on. I got grain shipped to me. It was supposed to be crushed and it wasn't. I was too new to know that and I ended up doing my first all-grain with uncrushed grain. I bought my mill right after that.

For me it's more about convenience than cost savings.

 

[augiedoggy]

I save about 50% off my LHBS by buying in bulk and crushing my own grain. It also allows me to stockpile grain. I make a lot fewer trips to my LHBS than I used to. Uncrushed, the grain keeps for a long time.

I had a bad experience early on. I got grain shipped to me. It was supposed to be crushed and it wasn't. I was too new to know that and I ended up doing my first all-grain with uncrushed grain. I bought my mill right after that.

For me it's more about convenience than cost savings.

Does Niagara Traditions charge that much to crush the grain? or are you using kegworks?

It was my understanding that the crush charges at these places are very small...

 

[mongoose33]

This reminds me of an argument made in favor of reloading ammunition--the argument is that you'll save money over time if you do it. Well. You will, if you were going to purchase ammunition and shoot it, at some particular rate of use. But what often happens is that you end up shooting more. That's what happened to me.

Same, IMO, with beer. Do you drink more beer because it's cheaper and more readily accessible? That's happened to me. I'm not pounding down several pints a day, but it's easy to just pull a pint to end the day.

I could have just bought crushed grain from my LHBS, but there are many reasons why I ended up buying a mill. One is that my LHBS is half an hour away, and the cost of driving there is one of the costs of buying and having grain crushed there.

Another is that uncrushed grain lasts much longer, so I can keep it in containers until needed. I can keep a larger variety so if I have an idea and want to try a variation, I can do that. To use a LHBS means I need a specific recipe with specific amounts of grain and have to hope that he has it in stock.

Another, noted above, is that I control the fineness of the crush. I can experiment if I want to try different things.

Finally, for me it's not just about saving money; it's about exploring the brewing of beer using all the tools at my disposal. I've bought reloading equipment because it may make my life easier, make reloading faster, improve quality control, or just because I want to learn about it. None of that saves money--it costs money. Same with a lot of brewing equipment I've bought. Do I have to have a Total Dissolved Solids meter to check my RO water? No. Do I absolutely need a PH meter? No. Do I need a refractometer? No.

Do I *need* a mill? No.

Saving money isn't the reason I got into brewing. Rather, it was because a local brewery changed the recipe and process of my absolute favorite commercial beer. Ick. So now I am on a mission to try to recreate that old flavor. Can't do that easily without flexibility, and part of the allure of the hobby to me is the ability to experiment.

PS: This is my view; yours may be different, you may have different values underlying your decision. None of this is meant to suggest my decisions should be your decisions. You'll choose the ones which are right for you. Good luck!

 

[b-boy]

Does Niagara Traditions charge that much to crush the grain? or are you using kegworks?

It was my understanding that the crush charges at these places are very small...

NT is a great shop. We're lucky to have such a well run place in WNY. I've never had grain crushed there, so I've never paid for it. I don't know what they charge.

Originally, I ordered online and had it crushed. I go to NT for specialty stuff on occasion, but I crush it myself.

The big savings is in buying bulk grain as opposed to 1-2 pounds at a time. If you can't crush it yourself, you have to get it done there and storage becomes an issue. I buy 55lb bags, store the grain in airtight containers, and crush just what I need.

We have a group buy running locally, and we get a pretty good rate. I used to buy from the Pittsburgh group buy. Their prices were really cheap. I could get a 50 lb sack of 2-row for ~$30-$35.

For example:

Local LHBS:
1 lb 2-row => $1.99 => $1.99/lb
50lb briess 2-row => $63.99 => $1.28/lb

Group Buy:
50 lb Briess 2-row => $45.00 => $0.90/lb

 

[wyowolf]

I am just getting to the point of buying a mill, can anyone recommend a good one to start with?

 

[augiedoggy]

NT is a great shop. We're lucky to have such a well run place in WNY. I've never had grain crushed there, so I've never paid for it. I don't know what they charge.

Originally, I ordered online and had it crushed. I go to NT for specialty stuff on occasion, but I crush it myself.

The big savings is in buying bulk grain as opposed to 1-2 pounds at a time. If you can't crush it yourself, you have to get it done there and storage becomes an issue. I buy 55lb bags, store the grain in airtight containers, and crush just what I need.

We have a group buy running locally, and we get a pretty good rate. I used to buy from the Pittsburgh group buy. Their prices were really cheap. I could get a 50 lb sack of 2-row for ~$30-$35.

For example:

Local LHBS:
1 lb 2-row => $1.99 => $1.99/lb
50lb briess 2-row => $63.99 => $1.28/lb

Group Buy:
50 lb Briess 2-row => $45.00 => $0.90/lb

Not to take things off topic but I totally agree.
And I agree with Mongoose33's take on it Well put.
This is a hobby.. a mechanic will buy tools he can easily get by without as well...

 

[augiedoggy]

I am just getting to the point of buying a mill, can anyone recommend a good one to start with?

What are you after? best bang for your buck? I have a $99 cereal killer and its worked flawlessly for me.. I even motorized it.. Everyones going to have different opinions based on what they have experience with... As of late I would NOT recommend the Barley crusher brand mill.

people often recommend 3 roller mills but they do shred the husks more so I dont see any benefit myself.

this is a good buy if you want stainless roller (if you condition your grain)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Roller-...793169?hash=item41a823ce91:g:~doAAOSwSzdXBAtb

 

[Mer-man]

I appreciate everyone's responses to my question. And I just realized that I will be moving far away from my LHBS, so the good and free milling I get now will go out the window, as I would have to drive there every time.

I really do not do this to save money -- brewing is a great mixture of science and art, and it's fun to boot.

Thanks peeps!

 

[mongoose33]

I am just getting to the point of buying a mill, can anyone recommend a good one to start with?

I just bought a Barley Crusher; HOWEVER, there is some issues with it that I wish I'd known before I bought it.

It has a supposed lifetime warranty but some have had issues having that honored. I have not had mine long enough to have to deal with that, and it crushes just fine.

And yet, when you look at the reviews, at AIH for example, they're glowing:

http://www.homebrewing.org/Barley-Crusher-Grain-Mill-7LB-Hopper_p_872.html

They're great on MoreBeer, Amazon--I couldn't find a place that gave them a bad review.

So--how long will mine last before I have problems? Dunno. For now I'm happy with it. The Cereal Killer is cheaper by about $40, but it only has a 1-year warranty. The BC is lifetime, but if you can't get that warranty honored it's as if it doesn't have one.

In the meantime I'll keep looking for a cheap alternative, perhaps a used mill I can keep as a backup just in case.

 

[augiedoggy]

I just bought a Barley Crusher; HOWEVER, there is some issues with it that I wish I'd known before I bought it.

It has a supposed lifetime warranty but some have had issues having that honored. I have not had mine long enough to have to deal with that, and it crushes just fine.

And yet, when you look at the reviews, at AIH for example, they're glowing:

http://www.homebrewing.org/Barley-Crusher-Grain-Mill-7LB-Hopper_p_872.html

They're great on MoreBeer, Amazon--I couldn't find a place that gave them a bad review.

So--how long will mine last before I have problems? Dunno. For now I'm happy with it. The Cereal Killer is cheaper by about $40, but it only has a 1-year warranty. The BC is lifetime, but if you can't get that warranty honored it's as if it doesn't have one.

In the meantime I'll keep looking for a cheap alternative, perhaps a used mill I can keep as a backup just in case.

The reviews are mostly given when new... also many of the retailers have been known to only post positive reviews... There is a thread about this somewhere on here

 

[wyowolf]

Sorry I guess I could have been a bit more precise. Basically I just wanted some opinions on what was good or more importantly bad.
So why dont you like th BC? its got good ratings...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0089WJZKW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Price is not necessarily and object... but dont want to get more than I need...

What are you after? best bang for your buck? I have a $99 cereal killer and its worked flawlessly for me.. I even motorized it.. Everyones going to have different opinions based on what they have experience with... As of late I would NOT recommend the Barley crusher brand mill.

people often recommend 3 roller mills but they do shred the husks more so I dont see any benefit myself.

this is a good buy if you want stainless roller (if you condition your grain)
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Two-Roller-...793169?hash=item41a823ce91:g:~doAAOSwSzdXBAtb

 

[mongoose33]

The reviews are mostly given when new... also many of the retailers have been known to only post positive reviews... There is a thread about this somewhere on here

Yeah, that's a problem when assessing longevity. Usually I look around a site to see if everything is universally well-reviewed or if there are items with lower reviews. Amazon, for instance, has them all over the place, so I tend to trust theirs more (not completely, just more ).

And when I'd found Yooper had bought one and was happy with the BC, that was all I needed. Problem was, that review was older, and I didn't uncover the later threads detailing issues with it before I bought it.

C'est la vie.

 

[Aristotelian]

I also brew smaller batches (2-2.5 gallons). I have a hand cranked corona-style mill that cost $30 and that is enough for my needs. If I can stock up on grains for a year, I figure that saves me 10+ trips to the LHBS to get fresh grains and pays for itself easily within a year saving gas and miles on my car.

 

[poptarts]

I have a corona mill, cost about 30, after drill and table and hopper we are looking at 100. I have 2 options, buy grain online crushed for 1.40ish a lb + shipping or buy it for 68 cents a lb by the bag from my local brewery. after 3 bags or so of grain I break even, I blew up 3+ bags in the first year without issue. There is also a freshness and consistency and higher efficiency I get from my own mill that has a value to it as well.

 

[b-boy]

And yet, when you look at the reviews, at AIH for example, they're glowing:

http://www.homebrewing.org/Barley-Crusher-Grain-Mill-7LB-Hopper_p_872.html

They're great on MoreBeer, Amazon--I couldn't find a place that gave them a bad review.

I'm not calling anyone out here, but I've posted negative reviews on sites and the reviews never showed up. I take some of those reviews with a grain of salt. I trust Amazon though.

 

[Homercidal]

I built my own. Only problem was the service and support sucks! I ended up having to fix the problems myself!

 

[Murphys_Law]

I bought a cereal crusher earlier in the year and it works ok so far. I didn't buy it for savings as much as convince (as others have said).

I keep a sack of Maris Otter around as my most often base grain, and then will pick up the other grains when I'm near the LHBS and store them in a Lowes food grade bucket/gamma lid until I'm ready to brew.

I also like the consistent crush. Pretty much "set and forget".

If I never recoup a dime it's worth the $100 I spent.

 

[augiedoggy]

Sorry I guess I could have been a bit more precise. Basically I just wanted some opinions on what was good or more importantly bad.
So why dont you like th BC? its got good ratings...

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0089WJZKW/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

Price is not necessarily and object... but dont want to get more than I need...

google "worn out grain mill" .... you will find 95% of all the complaints are of barley crusher mills where the rollers quit turning and have to be sent back for new rollers sometimes multiple times... Basically they are the cheapest designed and built mills next to a corona mill which would out last it... They use bushings instead of sealed bearings to reduce cost which wear more easily and the knurling on the rollers wears out faster than any other mill. They are sold all over by a lot of HB retailers so a lot of people buy them and many homebrewers that use them only a handful of times a year wont know about their issues since they are rarely using it.

 

[krackin]

Considering travel time and costs, hours of operation, etc. I don't buy local. I don't really have local. 35 miles at best. I buy bulk online and UPS or Fedex make delivery. Even with those costs, bulk delivered is 1/2 what I see LHBS prices. At a buck a pound savings, travel, and PIA, a mill payout return didn't take long for me.

 

[Jwin]

2 row by the # is $1.39 at lhbs.
$60 per sack(unmilled)
Group buy came out to .70
Ill break even on the cerial killer,HF stand, HF drill and HF speed control after 6 bags of base malt at group buy prices or 10 or so bags at lhbs bulk price.

 

[atoughram]

I obtained about #1200 pounds of two row for.... drum roll.... FREE

I've been giving it away and brewing as fast as I can...

The mill was a no brainer..

 

[krackin]

I obtained about #1200 pounds of two row for.... drum roll.... FREE

I've been giving it away and brewing as fast as I can...

The mill was a no brainer..

Can you deliver 100 lbs. 3400 miles east by tomorrow 6 AM EST?

 

[schatzke]

2 row is by far the grain I use the most and at $50 per 50 lb sack vs. $1.75 per pound at the LHBS my $100 cerial killer is paid for before the 3rd sack runs out.

 

[mcgimpkins]

I am just getting to the point of buying a mill, can anyone recommend a good one to start with?

I bought a Cereal Killer Grain Mill, they run $100 with free shipping (in the U.S.). They have pretty good reviews, and I like it.

 

[matt2778]

The other aspect to owning a mill is you can set the gap to your liking. Before my wife bought me my Gunnar malt mill I was getting 60-65 percent efficiency with the labs crush. I'm currently getting 70-75 percent efficiency with my mill set to .03 inches. So I'm saving in two ways. Grain went from $1.75 for base malt to $.95 plus I'm now getting over a 10 percent efficiency increase. I've probably run 1500 pounds of grain through the $130 mill in the last 5 years with only minimal repairs and maintenance. Realistically I figure I've probably saved around $1000 even after paying for the mill. If you're serious about brewing you're kinda wasting money not owning a mill.

 

[Zuljin]

If you want to save money or spend less, buy beer. If you want to enjoy a deeper aspect of the hobby, buy a mill.

I'm my expirience, AG has cost less than extract. There has been no cost difference for me in AG between not having and having a mill. I don't buy in bulk. All the lhbs I use either mill or allow me to mill on site for no extra charge.

I have a mill because I found one on sale at Austin Homebrew, and I wanted to build my own mill table to mill my own grain. The only cost factor was finding a mill I wanted for the price I wanted.

 

[danthebugman]

I bought a corona mill, so I recovered the cost after the first few batches.

Same here. Corona rocks :rockin:. I only brew smaller batches though so it probably took me a little longer than most to work through enough grain to recover the cost.

 

[atoughram]

Can you deliver 100 lbs. 3400 miles east by tomorrow 6 AM EST?

No, but I'll give you a couple of bags if you wanna pick it up...

I dont have #1200 pounds anymore - I've already ridded myself of about 600 pounds. The other 600 though... My neighbor and brother will take a dent out of it, but I'll give some away.

 

[atoughram]

I bought a Cereal Killer Grain Mill, they run $100 with free shipping (in the U.S.). They have pretty good reviews, and I like it.

Id give it a good review too...