Grain bag squeezing

[EddieWess]

One of LHBSs in Denver, in the instructions in an extract kit advises me not to squeeze the grain bag after steeping the grains, (they do advise letting the bag drip). Me, I always squeeze the excess liquid out of the grain bag. I was wondering what is wrong with squeezing the grain bag.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

You will extract tanins (Think stewed tea taste)

That was the quick answer in case you are brewing right now.

 

[EddieWess]

Well, oops then, next brew I will see what happens when I don't squeeze. Thanks.

 

[Pezman1]

Nothing will happen if you don't squeeze. If you DO squeeze, you run the risk of adding tannins to the beer (astringency) as stated.

If you want to make absolutely sure you are getting all the goodness form the grain possible, the recommended procedure is to rinse the grains with one or two quarts of warm water.
Pez.

P.S. I do not squeeze or rinse my steeping grains and have nver lacked for flavor or color

 

[a10t2]

I'm a firm believer that squeezing the grain bag will extract nothing that hasn't already gotten into the water via steeping. I just can't think of any physical reason why it would make a difference. Plus there are commercial breweries that literally squeeze their grains dry: http://www.alaskanbeer.com/our-brewery/sustainable-brewing/brewhouse-innovation.html

In terms of homebrewing old wives' tales, I think it's about on par with sugar causing cidery flavors.

 

[nanofreak]

I'm a firm believer that squeezing the grain bag will extract nothing that hasn't already gotten into the water via steeping. I just can't think of any physical reason why it would make a difference. Plus there are commercial breweries that literally squeeze their grains dry: http://www.alaskanbeer.com/our-brewery/sustainable-brewing/brewhouse-innovation.html

In terms of homebrewing old wives' tales, I think it's about on par with sugar causing cidery flavors.

While I agree that it seems like an old wives tale, that page never states that they extract any fluid through squeezing. Or did I miss it?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

While I agree that it seems like an old wives tale, that page never states that they extract any fluid through squeezing. Or did I miss it?

Plus the fact that Alaskans huff gasoline.

 

[a10t2]

While I agree that it seems like an old wives tale, that page never states that they extract any fluid through squeezing. Or did I miss it?

I guess that page doesn't actually give much detail. This press release is a little better: http://www.2beerguys.com/blog/2009/05/31/alaskan_brewing_co_01/

It mentions that they conducted a blind tasting using both techniques and only decided to go ahead with the press when they couldn't tell the difference.

 

[Mermaid]

I brewed my first batch, a partial /extract back at the beginning of May. I'm just starting to drink it now and I can say that squeezing the bag didn't really seem to cause any off flavors. It's got other issues, like chill haze, but the color is nice and the yeast seems to have cleaned up any "odd" flavors that bag squeezing might have caused.

Next partial/extract batch I brew I will know better, but just didn't want you to worry if you're already past the point of no return on this batch.

 

[ruffdeezy]

I'm a firm believer that squeezing the grain bag will extract nothing that hasn't already gotten into the water via steeping. I just can't think of any physical reason why it would make a difference. Plus there are commercial breweries that literally squeeze their grains dry: http://www.alaskanbeer.com/our-brewery/sustainable-brewing/brewhouse-innovation.html

In terms of homebrewing old wives' tales, I think it's about on par with sugar causing cidery flavors.

From that page it sounds like they dry the grains just so they can ship them to farms. Seems like a big waste of time and money to send grain to farms.

 

[Revvy]

We need to put this, "squeezing the grain bag" rote answer, brewer's myth aside., It is not true.

There's no reason not to squeeze.....that's another old brewer's myth that has been misunderstood...and has been shot down..But if often just get's repeated as ROTE without anyone stopping to look beyond the just repeating the warning...

Read this https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/do-you-squeeze-bag-biab-177051/?highlight=squeeze

And this.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/squeezing-grain-bag-bad-175179/?highlight=squeeze

From Aussie Homebrewer.com

Tannins And Astringency

If you are worried about squeezing your bag too much or crushing too fine, relax! Astringent beers do not come from finely crushed or squeezed husks but come rather from a combination of high temperatures and high pH. These conditions pull the polyhenols out of the husk. The higher your pH and the higher temperature you expose your grain to, the worse the problem becomes. Any brewer, traditional or BIAB, should never let these conditions arrive. If you do allow these conditions to arrive, then you will find yourself in exactly the same position as a traditional brewer. Many commercial breweries actually hammer mill their grain to powder for use in mash filter systems because they have control of their pH and temperatures. This control (and obviously expensive complex equipment) allows them non-astringent beers and “into kettle,” efficiencies of over 100%.

As long as you keep your steeping temps below 170, you won't be producing those supposed tannins that folks blindly say you would be squeezing out.

1) If your PH is off, or your steeping/mashing temp is above 170, your beer will extract tanins from the husks whether you squeeze or not

2) If your PH is ok, and your temps were below 170, squeeze away!

There's been some tests that have disproved the whole "don't squeeze the grain bag, because you will leech tannins" idea. I think there's even been a couple experiments on here detailed in threads. I think it's been pretty well shot down as one of those "old school" beliefs, that turn out to have little effect.

In fact if you are doing AG "Brew in a Bag" you are encouraged to squeeze the grain bag. They even showed it on basic brewing recently, the took a ladder with a hook attached, hung the grain bag, and twisted the hell out of it to drain every ounce of precious wort out of bag of grain.

This should launch as an mp-4

http://media.libsyn.com/media/basicbrewing/bbv01-16-10cornpils.mp4

So is that's the case, that it is "OK" to do in AG Brew in the bag, then why would it really be bad in extract with grains brewing?

I wouldn't worry about it.

From BYO, MR Wizard;

The two most influential factors affecting the extraction of tannins from malt into wort are pH and temperature. All-grain brewers are very careful not to allow wort pH to reach more than about pH 6 during sparging because tannin extraction increases with pH. In all-grain brewing wort pH typically rises during the last stages of wort collection and is one of the factors letting the brewer know that wort collection should be stopped.....

Temperature also affects tannin extraction. This relationship is pretty simple. If you don’t want to run the risk of getting too much tannin in your wort, keep the temperature just below 170° F.

This is where the answer to your last question begins. You ask whether steeping and sparging released "unwanted tannins" in your beer. For starters, all beer contains tannins. Some tannins are implicated in haze and some lend astringent flavors to beer.

The type most homebrewers are concerned about are those affecting flavor. In any case, it is up to the brewer to decide if the level of tannins in their beer is too high. The (in)famous decoction mash is frequently recommended when a brewer is in search of more malt flavor. Decoction mashes boil malt and — among analytical brewers who are not afraid of rocking the boat with unpopular ideas — are known to increase the astringent character associated with tannins. In general I wouldn’t consider 170° F dangerously high with respect to tannin extraction. However, if you believe your beers may suffer because of too much astringency, consider adjusting your steep pH and lowering the temperature a few degrees.

So quit repeating this urban legend, gang. All of a sudden it is OK to squeeze for brew in a bag.....so how is it different really, from extract with grains??? Think on it before you regurgitate the same old hackneyed answers next time, gang.

 

[Pezman1]

Revvy, The Sept. issue2009 VOL 15 NO 5 Brew Your Own has an article in it "help me Nr. Wizard" by Ashton Lewis, that emphatically states NOT to squeeze the grain bag. It is the issue with the airlocks on the cover, page 15.

However, the reason was NOT astringency and tannins, but haze forming trub, grain particles and maybe, possible polyphenol extraction. He suggests the proper technique to avoid any of these possible outcomes is to rinse instead of squeeze.

After thinking this over, I believe that rinsing is the first best way to do it, but squeezing is NOT the absolute no-no we have been told.


Pez.

 

[Yooper]

We need to put this, "squeezing the grain bag" rote answer, brewer's myth aside., It is not true.


So quit repeating this urban legend, gang. All of a sudden it is OK to squeeze for brew in a bag.....so how is it different really, from extract with grains??? Think on it before you regurgitate the same old hackneyed answers next time, gang.

I don't know for 100% certainty one way or another, but I'm an AG brewer and I don't squeeze my grains to get more wort out. The big breweries don't either. If not, why not? They could definitely get more wort out if they did. Must be a reason.

I don't think I'm "regurgitating the same old hackneyed answers", but what do I know? I'm just a lowly brewer.

 

[a10t2]

The big breweries don't either.

... Except the ones that do.

 

[Yooper]

... Except the ones that do.

good point! The ones I've been to don't. I can only speak for the ones I'm familiar with. Blanket statements aren't always true.

 

[samc]

I liken it to a tea bag. If you brew the tea at the right temp for the right amount of time you can squeeze the bag and get a bit more properly brewed tea. If it sits too long or too hot and you squeeze you wind up with a poorer tasting cup of tea.

 

[monty3777]

I once asked this question to the tech support folks at Briess and they indicated that squeezing the grains will not add additional tannins to the wort. FWIW. So, if you really need that extra 2 cups of liquid to make your extract brew the talk of the town, squeeze your sack like it owes you money.

 

[a10t2]

squeeze your sack like it owes you money.

Dibs!

 

[Pezman1]

Of course, the flip side of all this is what exactly do you GAIN by squeezing instead of rinsing, letting it drip, or none of the above?

A tiny extra bit of color?? better flavor??? Can it be noticed??

It sems to me that these issues should be adressed by volume and temperature of the steep water instead of manipulation of the grain bag.

Pez.


EDIT - It would be kinda neat to split a wort into two pots, Then squeeze the bejeezus out of the grain bag into one of them and taste test the final beers.

 

[jeffmeh]

As a BIAB brewer, I do squeeze the grain bag. There is no way that it will drain as much without the squeeze. No deleterious effects to report....

 

[Revvy]

Of course, the flip side of all this is what exactly do you GAIN by squeezing instead of rinsing, letting it drip, or none of the above?

A tiny extra bit of color?? better flavor??? Can it be noticed??

It sems to me that these issues should be adressed by volume and temperature of the steep water instead of manipulation of the grain bag.

Pez.

Well, if you are doing AG brew in a bag, you are getting up to, if not more, than a gallon of mashed wort, that would otherwise be lost to grain absorbtion. All that yummy converted sugar would go to waste.

 

[dogboysdad]

I've been squeezing my bag for 20 years. I haven't gone blind and my beer tastes good.

 

[Pezman1]

Well, if you are doing AG brew in a bag, you are getting up to, if not more, than a gallon of mashed wort, that would otherwise be lost to grain absorbtion. All that yummy converted sugar would go to waste.

I was specifically thinking of the specialty grains being steeped in a bag by the extract brewer, not base malts for the AG brew-n-bag crew.

Pez.

 

[Revvy]

I was specifically thinking of the specialty grains being steeped in a bag by the extract brewer, not base malts for the AG brew-n-bag crew.

Pez.

But....even if it is for extract, there is a LOT of flavor/sugars on those grains, and squeezing them will give, however the amount the comes out, in the few pounds of extract steeped some good flavor. Whether it's an ounce of liquid or a gallon or more, gran absorption is still happening.

 

[knightbeer39]

I think what Revvy is trying to say is: SQUEEZE THE DAMN BAG!!

 

[RCCOLA]

You do a web search on this and end up about 50/50 either way. http://search.netzero.net/search?ac...urce=hybrid_zerobar&query=Grain bag squeezing

This would make an interesting side-by side comparison test.

OTOH: I don't squeeze my mash out, and a rinse of it (sparging) is sufficient to get the flavor from the grains--so, what's wrong w/ a rinse of the grains and no risk of tannin extraction?

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

Brewing myth or not, I don't know why anyone would squeeze a steeping bag for the small amount of possible benefit.

Over the first two years of brewing, I never worried about HSA because I was always being told it was a myth. 2 or 3 months ago, I decided on a whim to be more careful about not introducing oxygen to the hot wort. That beer turned out to be one of my better brews by a long way. Now, I have no idea if it was some other factor that was the reason for this, and I don't really care to experiment to prove or disprove this "Myth".......Frankly, it's not significantly more work to avoid HSA just as it's easier to not squeeze the bag. If one is worried about getting every minute bit of flavour out of the grain, why not simply use and extra tablespoon of grain and not worry about it?

 

[machinelf]

I thought HSA was only a (possible) problem post-boil, as oxygen introduced before gets boiled away?

 

[knightbeer39]

Brewing myth or not, I don't know why anyone would squeeze a steeping bag for the small amount of possible benefit.

Over the first two years of brewing, I never worried about HSA because I was always being told it was a myth. 2 or 3 months ago, I decided on a whim to be more careful about not introducing oxygen to the hot wort. That beer turned out to be one of my better brews by a long way. Now, I have no idea if it was some other factor that was the reason for this, and I don't really care to experiment to prove or disprove this "Myth".......Frankly, it's not significantly more work to avoid HSA just as it's easier to not squeeze the bag. If one is worried about getting every minute bit of flavour out of the grain, why not simply use and extra tablespoon of grain and not worry about it?

I would disagree with your first assessment. I think you get more benefit out of it then you indicate, and certainly more than that which an extra tablespoonof grain would yield. I used to get a lot of extra color and potentially flavor ouT of squeezing my bag of steeping grains when I used to do extract batches. To each their own of course...

Secondly, I once did care enough to test the "myth" myself just for grins. I brewed two identical batches of beer (AG), and one I just agitated the crap out of the entire time. I vorlaufed rowdy, stirred the crap out of it right before chilling, just did everything you could think of to introduce O2 into the process. The second batch I was super careful with, very gentle and tried not to introduce any O2 until right before pitching. My results? The first one actually came out better. I realize this isn't exactly scientific or a large sample size, but I was sufficiently convinced that HSA is not an issue with my homebrews....

That's just my two cents. IMHO, SQUEEZE AWAY!......

 

[Pezman1]

The typical extract with grains recipe has one pound of specialty grains, sometimes more, sometimes less. The last half dozen batches I brewed all had an even pound.
Just how much goodness can you squeeze out of the bag after it has finished steeping and dripping? A few ounces???? I find it hard to believe I'm missing out on noticeable flavor or color in a five gallon batch by not squeezing.

If there is any chance of badness from squeezing the grain bag, I gotta believe this offsets the ability to extract a tiny bit more liquid from the specialty grains .

Since there are reputable sources that say completely different things on this issue, I will just rinse with hot water.
Pez.