Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

[HCTRT42]

SO i hope someone can help me out.......I have a "FNG" question........

This was my first batch of cider (5th batch of beer since I started brewing back in March). Yesterday I brewed 5 gallons of Graff Cider. I followed all directions to a tee. I used the Lighthouse Honey Crisp Apple Cider from Sam's Club. The only problem I had was that when I pitched my yeast, my wort temp was 57 deg (I left the LHCAC in my truck overnight by accident the night before). I am attempting to use a 6 gal carboy. I set the carboy up with a blow off tube. I am keeping in my basement which is a consistant 66 deg, 43-45% humidity. It has been over 24hrs and there is not one ounce of life in my carboy.

Do I have reason to worry????

 

[klyph]

No, the yeast are off to a slow start because they're a tad cold, give it another two days before worrying.

 

[CidahMastah]

Question for the Graff enjoyers. I am going to bottle carbonate. What is the reccomended dosage? i.e. should i be going 5 oz with priming sugar for 5 gallons? Does anybody have a tried and true sugar priming dosage?

Thanks much!!!

HCTRT42 - I concur with Klyph. Your yeast are just shy due to the temp. I have had fermentations start 5 days after pitching when the temps weren't ideal for a yeast strain.

 

[akloco]

I'm pretty sure that lighthouse juice has sorbates added, it may not ferment

 

[CidahMastah]

I'm pretty sure that lighthouse juice has sorbates added, it may not ferment

Shoot didn't even think of that - good call. Check that juice (I use fresh pressed cider). You should only use a pasteurized juice that has ascorbic acid as a preserver (musslemans and adam and eve juices I believe use ascorbic acid only after past.).

 

[akthor]

Yeah most store bought big chain ciders have sorbate to keep them from fermenting so they can keep them on the shelves longer. I learned the hard way.

Shoot didn't even think of that - good call. Check that juice (I use fresh pressed cider). You should only use a pasteurized juice that has ascorbic acid as a preserver (musslemans and adam and eve juices I believe use ascorbic acid only after past.).

 

[Hazen01]

I put my first batch of Graff together last weekend, and I would like to spice up 1/2 of it to make a Christmas Graff. I have 12.5 gallons and I was going to siphon off 12 today and add the spices to let it finish with them before bottling.

Does anyone have any suggestions? I was thinking cinnamon Nutmeg and the zest of an orange. If anyone has any feedback on this I would appreciate it. After all this is my first batch.

 

[BostonRogue]

I made a batch and cut out the crystal malt; unbelievably good. I'm brewing another batch today and am thinking about adding a little cinnamon, nutmeg, and ginger to make it a bit more holidayish.

Thanks for the great post!

 

[akthor]

Why would you cut out the crystal malt?

 

[BostonRogue]

I cut out the crystal malt as ciders I have previously brewed I enjoyed a bit more on the dry/tart side. That being said, in this next batch I'll include the crystal malt for comparative purposes and to compliment some of the spicing I intend to include.

I and the gf really loved the graff. Definitely will be making a few more batches of this while I can still buy fresh cider.

 

[HCTRT42]

I'm pretty sure that lighthouse juice has sorbates added, it may not ferment

Their website said that they do not use sorbates or other preservatives. Unfortunatly I threw the bottles away and haven't got chance to get to the store to check another bottle yet to confirm.

http://www.litehousefoods.com/faq


On a better note I noticed a small layer of foam/bubbles on the top of the cider. So maybe I got lucky and it's doing something.

 

[Hazen01]

I have decided to steep an apple spice tea and then add it to the five gallons that I am removing from my main fermenter. I am using Apple juice and steeping cloves one stick of cinnamon and some allspice along with the zest from an orange.

I hope that this gives me the spice notes that my wife is looking forward to.

 

[Hazen01]

I split the batch last night and added the steeped apple juice. This will prolong the primary fermentation, but hopefully the results will be good. I will let you know.

 

[akthor]

Anyone notice if their Graff gets more "tart" as it ages? It seemed sweeter when I first started drinking it, a month later it seems tarter??? I must say I liked it better less tart. I wonder if adding sorbate at the end of fermentation might keep it from getting tarter? Anyone backsweeten it?

 

[CidahMastah]

Anyone notice if their Graff gets more "tart" as it ages? It seemed sweeter when I first started drinking it, a month later it seems tarter??? I must say I liked it better less tart. I wonder if adding sorbate at the end of fermentation might keep it from getting tarter? Anyone backsweeten it?

I am on my first batch (bottling tuesday) so I am of little help. However, what yeast did you use? How long did you let it ferment before you bottled it had it finished fermenting? Did you force carbonate or bottle with priming sugar?

Best bet is to add splenda or truvia. Sorbate will not kill yeast, rather it will not allow additional yeast to reproduce. If you are bottling with priming sugar and you add sorbate, it may not carb enough and you will be stuck with a sickly sweet drink. On the other hand, if there is a lot of active yeast already the sorbate won't work as you hoped.

Catch 22 - find the F.G. and go from there. if it gets less sweet tasting, take another F.G. reading and see if it is reducing. If it is, well then you have your answer.

 

[akthor]

3 weeks in primary. Force carbed.

 

[CidahMastah]

3 weeks in primary. Force carbed.

My guess is:
Sounds like the yeast, while possibly fermenting very slowly, hadn't finished its fermentation completely. Unfortunatley since you don't have a final gravity reading before you racked into your corny keg, you don't know if you lost sugar from racking to now. Yeast can pitter patter around and ferment for a long time.

Suggestion:
Next time you could rack off your Graff into your corny keg and chill for a few weeks (others might have the right time for beer yeasts I know with cider and wine yeasts this can take longer). When you chill (34F ish) for perhaps 2-3 weeks the yeast will go dormant and fall out of suspension. From there you rack again to another corny add sorbate, then force carb. That would eliminate nearly all live yeast, thus leaving your residual sugar as is. Sorbate would hallt any sneaky yeast cells left and limit additional fermentation, if any. (as you can see, easier to backsweeten with a little truvia or splenda)

By the way, I just ordered a kegging system today. Would you mind sharing how you force carbed it? I am sure there is info out there on it, but if you have a good level of carbonation and wouldn't mind sharing then I would really appreciate it. I am a complete noob to C02. Hope to get it early next week. (dual body triple gauge taprite regulator, two corny's, stainless tower and dual perlick creamer faucets). I am hoping I can convert an old freezer to hold at least 1 if not two cornys.

Needless to say.... I am very pumped. have Graff and a nice porter ending fermentation this and next week respectively.

 

[akthor]

It sat in my kegerator for 3 weeks then I jumped it to a clean keg. It's been another couple weeks. Could have been the increased tartness was my imagination.

I just carbed it like my beer 12 psi @ 38F or so, carbed pretty well after 2 weeks 3 is better.

 

[CidahMastah]

It sat in my kegerator for 3 weeks then I jumped it to a clean keg. It's been another couple weeks. Could have been the increased tartness was my imagination.

I just carbed it like my beer 12 psi @ 38F or so, carbed pretty well after 2 weeks 3 is better.

Thanks for the information! It is a whole new world out there with a kegging setup. I am looking forward to it.

Between - do the cornys have to be upright to dispense or can they be laid on their side?

 

[akthor]

They should be upright but I suppose you could figure out a way to do on their side. People have talked about it before in the kegging section.

 

[klyph]

I used a 3 gallon in my fridge on it's side, worked great, just put a short diptube on both posts and put the liquid out on the bottom.

 

[Flywheel]

So if I use a 2.6% AA hop, do I use a full oz of it?

 

[Powers]

kind of an odd question, but here goes. i started 3 gallons of cider using fresh picked Liberty apples from my in-laws farm, which is really only about 2 gallons since about 1 gallon of applesauce mush is sitting in the bottom of the secondary. They are tart apples and quite tasty, but now that the cider is fermented out, I'm thinking the cider will be too tart/thin for my liking.

After following a link to this thread, I wondering whether I can pull together the malt/water/grains/hops portion of this recipe, and then blend it with my cider. I would have to kill off the wine yeast in my cider first, but it sounds possible. I would also have to adjust for the different in batch size, since I'd likely only end up with about 3 gallons total (2 gallons cider + 1 gallon beer).

Any thoughts??

 

[CidahMastah]

kind of an odd question, but here goes. i started 3 gallons of cider using fresh picked Liberty apples from my in-laws farm, which is really only about 2 gallons since about 1 gallon of applesauce mush is sitting in the bottom of the secondary. They are tart apples and quite tasty, but now that the cider is fermented out, I'm thinking the cider will be too tart/thin for my liking.

After following a link to this thread, I wondering whether I can pull together the malt/water/grains/hops portion of this recipe, and then blend it with my cider. I would have to kill off the wine yeast in my cider first, but it sounds possible. I would also have to adjust for the different in batch size, since I'd likely only end up with about 3 gallons total (2 gallons cider + 1 gallon beer).

Any thoughts??

Mixing yeasts could be a bad idea. They will struggle for dominance and then one will win, so you won't know what you are going to get. That said I think you should go for it anyway, whichever wins will end up doing your conditioning. That said... my vote would be to:

1. ferment the malt/water/grains separately, at least a week or so (primary ferment).
2. After that mix them in with the cider portion and let them bulk age together for 2-4 weeks or more (be sure to rack them both off the trub/lees prior to bulk aging them).

You may run into a stuck fermentation once you add them together. The wine yeast will undoubtedly beat out the the ale yeast.

 

[CidahMastah]

I used a 3 gallon in my fridge on it's side, worked great, just put a short diptube on both posts and put the liquid out on the bottom.

Cool - thanks for the tip. I assume that the dip tubes can be bought like that? Or am I going to have to get the grinder out?

 

[Powers]

cidah, that's kind of what i had in mind. i wanted to make the 1 gallon of DME and specialty grains and hops, then ferment it in a 1 gallon jug. once it completed, then I would kill the wine yeast off with some potassium sorbate or campden (have to research the best method first) and then blend the cider with the beer mixture. i think the wine yeast has to be killed off first or else the wine yeast would finish the work the beer yeast left behind, and that would defeat the whole purpose of trying to leave behind some residual sugars for maltiness and mouthfeel...

 

[klyph]

Cool - thanks for the tip. I assume that the dip tubes can be bought like that? Or am I going to have to get the grinder out?

The gas dip tubes are usually really short, but I would cut one as short as possible so that you can fully drain the keg.

 

[CidahMastah]

The gas dip tubes are usually really short, but I would cut one as short as possible so that you can fully drain the keg.

Thanks Klyph - my kegging set up can't get here soon enough!

Now to finish up plans for my keezer!

 

[CidahMastah]

cidah, that's kind of what i had in mind. i wanted to make the 1 gallon of DME and specialty grains and hops, then ferment it in a 1 gallon jug. once it completed, then I would kill the wine yeast off with some potassium sorbate or campden (have to research the best method first) and then blend the cider with the beer mixture. i think the wine yeast has to be killed off first or else the wine yeast would finish the work the beer yeast left behind, and that would defeat the whole purpose of trying to leave behind some residual sugars for maltiness and mouthfeel...

Powers - You are on the right track. My experience with wine yeasts, in particular champagne yeasts is little or no residual sugar, and tougher than snot to kill. i.e. they can take off after bottle conditioning for 2 months+ with the addition of new food.

Now for hearsay:
I have "heard" if you freeze it for a couple weeks it will kill the yeast, but not sure if that would affect flavor (be sure to leave headspace). The other option is to let it bottle condition at a low temp (40-50F) or so for 3-4+ months if you want to be sure. I usually try to wait 6 months from when I put the cider in the fermentor. Typically the cider ferments for about 2 months and then has about 4 to bulk condition.

Again that is all "so I heard stuff".

All that said I just racked off my graff into a corny on Tuesday and tried it. Residual sugar was around 1.011-1.012. It had a green cider taste to it (yeasty smell), but tasted like it had aged for 2-3 months (less acidity). Also it had more body than cider normally has on its own. I am trying to forestall any judgment until I try it carbed and aged as per Brandon's recipe, but so far I am not super impressed. Hopefully 3 weeks of conditioning will do the trick. Don't get me wrong, it has a good decent cider potential, just not raving good. But I shouldn't expect that yet.

2 weeks in primary
Plan for 3 weeks conditioning and then carbing.

 

[Powers]

So if I use a 2.6% AA hop, do I use a full oz of it?

the simple answer is yes based on alpha acid units (AAUs).

now, AAUs don't take into account batch size, boil time, specific gravity, etc, and so desired IBUs would be a better measure. but from the info given, AAUs will be easier to calculate.

the original post in this thread recommends 1/2 oz of 6% alpha acid hops. that's 3 AAUs (6 x 0.5 oz). if you use 2.6%, that will only be 2.6 AAUs (2.6 x 1 oz). but he recommended going on the lighter side, so 1 oz of 2.6% will be a safe bet.