Graff (Malty, slightly hopped cider)

[thunderwagn]

Man, so I followed the original recipe to a T. I may have added the wort a bit too hot to the cider/juice.

It tastes alright. Its like a tart dry cider, mixed with coors light. It's just not that amazing.

It also gives me one hell of a hang over .

It's ... just OK. Not sure if I would make this again... I'd probably reduce the grains 1/2, add more sugar to bump the ABV 1-2%, and back sweeten with a little cider concentrate...

I might even consider caramelizing some sugar. It's just... OK.

Yeah, I tasted a sample of mine the other day checking gravity. I know it's still a bit early, but to be good it's got a TON of improving to do...
I'm going to brew it again and probably use crystal 120L. I do think I got a lazy batch of yeast, so I'm going with a different yeast and also going for a yeast nutrient.
I'm not giving up on this yet. It's gotten way to many great reviews. I'm chalking up my first attempt to brewer error somewhere and ****ty yeast.

 

[Jwin]

I've used apple juice concentrate and brown sugar with good luck to boost abv.
I got lazy with my last arch of granny smith based cider and left it in primary for almost 3 months. It smelled of vinegar so I dumped it.
I found the granny smith juice at walmart about this time of year last year. Seemed seasonal.

 

[j1laskey]

Another fantastic batch View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1446083680.331944.jpg

 

[RobertMT]

I've made four batches in last few months. They get good reviews from most that try them, at least the beer drinkers. Most common remark, that's a real good tasting beer, it has interesting flavor, what is it?

First batch was OK, followed recipe pretty close, using Knotty.
Second batch, switched to 6 gallon glass carboy, I did small, 2 1/2 gallon boil, BIB 4lb two row, 1lb 60L, 1lb instant oats, 1/3oz hallertauer @60min and another 1/3oz at flame out, cooled and added to 3 1/2 gallons AJ, with washed Knotty. At bottling, primed with 1/2 can FAJC and bottle conditioned 3 weeks. Incredible head and smooth just past dry.
Third batch 1lb 60L steeped, in 3qts 150 water, sparged with 3 qts 170 strong tea, added 4lbs of M.O. LME, 30 min boil, 1/4oz Cascade at flame out, cooled added to 3 1/2 gallons AJ, 2 cans FAJC, one tablespoon powdered lemon, washed Knotty, kept ferm temp lower 68 instead of 72 of previous batches. Primed with 1/2 can FAJC. After three weeks in bottle, incredible flavor, reasonable head and bit darker.
Fourth batch 4lbs MO LME, 1 gallon strong tea, 30 min boil, 1/4oz cascade for 30min, cooled, added to 4 1/2 gallons AJ with 2lbs brown sugar dissolved in it and 1 tablespoon of lemon powder, washed Knotty, fermented at 65 three weeks, transferred to secondary, two 3 gallon, added another pound of brown sugar, to each batch, after another two weeks, cleared one batch with gelatin and cold crashed, bottled tonight, primed with 1/4 can FAJC. Not sure if it'll carb or not, alcohol may be too high. Sample was like Pappy's with MO and touch of citrus, from cascade and lemon. Very smooth, strong, hint of apple and slightly sweet, few weeks in bottle and may be best yet.

Last 3 gallons, from this batch, I'm going to rerack and throw in some whisky OAK chips and let it set in secondary another few weeks.

 

[IJesusChrist]

Hmmm. Ok so, I don't have equip to do biab or all grain. With everything you said what would you recommend for the next batch?

 

[RobertMT]

Hmmm. Ok so, I don't have equip to do biab or all grain. With everything you said what would you recommend for the next batch?

I would try for lower fermentation temps, mine get better, the lower I can maintain. If you're finishing in 7 days, you must be running over 70 - 72, mine's taking closer to four weeks. Too warm, you get more off flavors and hangovers. Let it age a bit, it helps mellow it out.

Have your tried Pappy's Pub Cider yet? it could be more to your tastes. It leaves more apple taste, month or more age helps it. It's ABV is pretty high, I've done it with Knotty and 1/4 less sugar, replacing half remaining sugar with FAJC and priming with FAJC. It brings it down to 13-14% range.

Be sure to leave room or add blow off tube, I added it to Graff yeast cake and had massive over flow, through airlock.

 

[seabrew8]

Anyone use gelatin with this stuff?

 

[IJesusChrist]

I would try for lower fermentation temps, mine get better, the lower I can maintain. If you're finishing in 7 days, you must be running over 70 - 72, mine's taking closer to four weeks. Too warm, you get more off flavors and hangovers. Let it age a bit, it helps mellow it out.

Have your tried Pappy's Pub Cider yet? it could be more to your tastes. It leaves more apple taste, month or more age helps it. It's ABV is pretty high, I've done it with Knotty and 1/4 less sugar, replacing half remaining sugar with FAJC and priming with FAJC. It brings it down to 13-14% range.

Be sure to leave room or add blow off tube, I added it to Graff yeast cake and had massive over flow, through airlock.

Mellow it out? It's too mellow! There aren't any off flavors, really, its just... bland. Like I said, someone took Coors light and mixed it with 3 tbsp of some woodchuck cider.

I'd be willing to try the pappy's next. I read about that. I didn't know the ABV was that high though, wow

 

[RobertMT]

If it was too bland, maybe you needed more/darker crystal and aroma hop. I rechecked my notes and first batch was 2lbs light DME and lb amber DME, 1/3oz hallertauer for 30min and small aroma hop addition, 1/4oz cascade at flame out, primed with 1/2 can FAJC.
It was more like Michelob, mixed with apple, than coors light.

By mellow, I meant let the fuzzel go away, to help with hangover.

 

[RobertMT]

Anyone use gelatin with this stuff?

I've tried using it to clear, last couple of times, not as good as super-clear KC, but dirt cheap.

 

[IJesusChrist]

No fusels, hangover is probably just drinking too much hah... I haven't added anything to backsweeten so perhaps that's an issue. It's alright. Really. I can drink it. I just would rather drink a woodchuck or even angry orchard

 

[seabrew8]

I've tried using it to clear, last couple of times, not as good as super-clear KC, but dirt cheap.

Thanks, how long has it taken to clear naturally in your experience?

I'm really trying to find something i can brew thats relatiavely easy and i can buy most of the ingredients locally! I'm hoping this is it, i'm a beer guy. Ordered the DME, hops etc yesterday!

 

[wc1376c]

Thanks, how long has it taken to clear naturally in your experience?

I'm really trying to find something i can brew thats relatiavely easy and i can buy most of the ingredients locally! I'm hoping this is it, i'm a beer guy. Ordered the DME, hops etc yesterday!

If you wait that extra week like Brandon says, it will clear by then. All 20 something batches that I have made take approx five to seven days and they start pouring clear (i can watch TV through the lighter ones).

 

[seabrew8]

If you wait that extra week like Brandon says, it will clear by then. All 20 something batches that I have made take approx five to seven days and they start pouring clear (i can watch TV through the lighter ones).

Not sure of the extra week your refering too.

Whats normally your timelime? I ordered mt hood hops any experience with those?

20 batches! awesome.

 

[IJesusChrist]

...something i can brew thats relatiavely easy and i can buy most of the ingredients locally
...
Ordered the DME, hops etc yesterday!

Wait what?

 

[seabrew8]

"most"

 

[wc1376c]

Not sure of the extra week your refering too.

Whats normally your timelime? I ordered mt hood hops any experience with those?

That extra few days is for kegging. Brandon wrote about this at the start of this forum.

My time line is scewed now, I have about two batches sitting in reserve (waiting for empty kegs). After pitch I am usually have a drinkable Graf in two weeks. I make sure that as soon as I keg a batch I brew a batch. I have been brewing this and Braggots for the last three months exclusivley.

 

[seabrew8]

That extra few days is for kegging. Brandon wrote about this at the start of this forum.

My time line is scewed now, I have about two batches sitting in reserve (waiting for empty kegs). After pitch I am usually have a drinkable Graf in two weeks. I make sure that as soon as I keg a batch I brew a batch. I have been brewing this and Braggots for the last three months exclusivley.

Thanks, thats fast! I have a pappy pub cider going now and a few old wine kits my father had that he was going to throw away. I really can't wait to get the graff going because the pub cider is going to take at least 6 weeks i figure. Last time i got into brewing i really shot myself in the foot by not giving it the time it needed so i like to have some quick turn around stuff.

I assume the braggot stuff with honey takes longer then graff?

 

[thunderwagn]

My graf has been in the fermentor for a month today. Did another gravity check today and it's 'done'. The flavor has improved vastly over the past week. I'm now picking up some malty notes, a bit of tartness, a bit of sweet and nice apple at the end. We have some cold days coming up this week. I think I may cold crash outside just to finish clearing it up a bit and go ahead and bottle.

 

[A50SNAKE]

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help me out, with a BIAB stove top recipe for the all grain brew? I was wanting to do this on the stovetop and I think my 1G paint strainer bad would be a good way to go with this one...

thoughts?

 

[BrewCityBaller]

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help me out, with a BIAB stove top recipe for the all grain brew? I was wanting to do this on the stovetop and I think my 1G paint strainer bad would be a good way to go with this one...

thoughts?

That's exactly how I did mine. I am an all grain brewer, but I did the "beer" portion of this as BIAB in a paint strainer bag on my stove top.

 

[A50SNAKE]

That's exactly how I did mine. I am an all grain brewer, but I did the "beer" portion of this as BIAB in a paint strainer bag on my stove top.

SWEET! yeah i figure for this amount of wort, it made the most sense...how did you do yours? did you still just use the same volumes and everything exactly as mentioned in the OP's recipe?

thanks for your reply.

 

[BrewCityBaller]

SWEET! yeah i figure for this amount of wort, it made the most sense...how did you do yours? did you still just use the same volumes and everything exactly as mentioned in the OP's recipe?

thanks for your reply.

You bet, happy to help. I used .5 lbs of Crystal 120L, an ounce of torrified wheat, and a half ounce of Centennial. All the volumes I used were the same as OP. Used a colander to sparge and squeezed that bag.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

 

[A50SNAKE]

You bet, happy to help. I used .5 lbs of Crystal 120L, an ounce of torrified wheat, and a half ounce of Centennial. All the volumes I used were the same as OP. Used a colander to sparge and squeezed that bag.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

ok, perfect sounds great...I think I will give that a try...I just got 10G of fresh pressed cider, and i'm going to make my second batch of this with 1/2 of that...and then I think I'm going to try to make Upstate Mike's caramel apple cider with the other 1/2....I just hope I can find liquid cinnamon extract, I think I read that seems to work best for that recipe.

thanks soo much again for your help.

 

[Roland_deschain]

I'm brewing this as I type. I've been wanting to try this as I'm a huge Dark Tower fan. I'm using Crystal hops but everything else stayed the same.

Roland

 

[IJesusChrist]

and squeezed that bag.

How do you squeeze it?

 

[A50SNAKE]

How do you squeeze it?

It might sound odd, but I think its just with his hands... or atleast that is all that I do.

if there is an easier or more fancy way...I would love to hear it ...

 

[BrewCityBaller]

How do you squeeze it?

It might sound odd, but I think its just with his hands... or atleast that is all that I do.

if there is an easier or more fancy way...I would love to hear it ...

When I did BIAB full-scale (6 gallon batches) I had full arm rubber gloves I would use to squeeze the bag.

For this small recipe I put the grain bag in a colander and the put a bowl on the grain in the colander and pushed.

 

[A50SNAKE]

When I did BIAB full-scale (6 gallon batches) I had full arm rubber gloves I would use to squeeze the bag.

For this small recipe I put the grain bag in a colander and the put a bowl on the grain in the colander and pushed.

sounds exactly like what I was planning on doing as well... thanks for your reply again...

 

[RobertMT]

I was wondering if anyone would be willing to help me out, with a BIAB stove top recipe for the all grain brew? I was wanting to do this on the stovetop and I think my 1G paint strainer bad would be a good way to go with this one...

thoughts?

Do you want to do all grain, instead of adding DME? or just to contain your steeping grains?

I did small BIB AG to add to AJ. (used gallon paint strainer bag)
4lbs two row
1lb 60L
2oz flaked barley
two gallons of 150 degree water, 60min, raised to 170 and held 10 min.
I just tied top off bag and left twine long, hung over pot to drain.
I then boiled for 60min, split hop addition at boil and flame out.
I added to 3 1/2 gallons AJ, for just over five gallon batch.

This turned out well, a bit darker, HG and more work than steep and DME. I used it as dipping toe in AG.

 

[seabrew8]

You bet, happy to help. I used .5 lbs of Crystal 120L, an ounce of torrified wheat, and a half ounce of Centennial. All the volumes I used were the same as OP. Used a colander to sparge and squeezed that bag.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

I haven't steeped specialty grains in a longtime but according to byo.com and Jamil Zainasheff's book "Brewing Classic Styles" you should not squeeze the bag, has you will be extracting tannins.

 

[A50SNAKE]

I haven't steeped specialty grains in a longtime but according to byo.com and Jamil Zainasheff's book "Brewing Classic Styles" you should not squeeze the bag, has you will be extracting tannins.

oh, what should we do then? just let it drip/drain all on its own? how long should we let it rest/sit for?

thanks for the replies all

 

[A50SNAKE]

Do you want to do all grain, instead of adding DME? or just to contain your steeping grains?

I did small BIB AG to add to AJ. (used gallon paint strainer bag)
4lbs two row
1lb 60L
2oz flaked barley
two gallons of 150 degree water, 60min, raised to 170 and held 10 min.
I just tied top off bag and left twine long, hung over pot to drain.
I then boiled for 60min, split hop addition at boil and flame out.
I added to 3 1/2 gallons AJ, for just over five gallon batch.

This turned out well, a bit darker, HG and more work than steep and DME. I used it as dipping toe in AG.

for now, no...I bought some DME from my homebrew clubs bulk buy, and I'm not sure if I will need it for anything else now, LOL...but thanks for all the info, very good to know I have options.:fro:

 

[seabrew8]

oh, what should we do then? just let it drip/drain all on its own? how long should we let it rest/sit for?

thanks for the replies all

Yeah, just let it drain for however long you can stand i guess I've been reading about partial mash the last few hours and i seen it mentioned a few times now, not to squeeze the bag.

Jamil's book says 30min to steep but if your going to include base malt that changes.

Love to hear from people more knowledgeable in partial mashing.

I like to make graff with 2 row instead of DME, its way cheaper. Just not sure on the volume of the strike/mash water and AJ. I figure i would use 4lbs of 2 row.

According to the guideline in the book - you should use 1.5quarts to 1 pound of grain. So with the 4lbs of 2 row plus the 0.5lb crystal that would be about 6.75qt or - little over 1.5gal of water for 4.5lbs of grain with no sparge.

After the 60min boil it will reduce some so probably just partial mash with 1.5 gallons, boil, cool and add 4 gallons of AJ?

 

[A50SNAKE]

Yeah, just let it drain for however long you can stand i guess I've been reading about partial mash the last few hours and i seen it mentioned a few times now, not to squeeze the bag.

Jamil's book says 30min to steep but if your going to include base malt that changes.

Love to hear from people more knowledgeable in partial mashing.

I like to make graff with 2 row instead of DME, its way cheaper. Just not sure on the volume of the strike/mash water and AJ. I figure i would use 4lbs of 2 row.

According to the guideline in the book - you should use 1.5quarts to 1 pound of grain. So with the 4lbs of 2 row plus the 0.5lb crystal that would be about 6.75qt or - little over 1.5gal of water for 4.5lbs of grain with no sparge.

After the 60min boil it will reduce some so probably just partial mash with 1.5 gallons, boil, cool and add 4 gallons of AJ?

thanks again for your reply and info. I would also like to hear from seasoned veterans on how they would do this...I plan to make up my next Graff in 1-2 days.

thanks,
Scott

 

[thunderwagn]

thanks again for your reply and info. I would also like to hear from seasoned veterans on how they would do this...I plan to make up my next Graff in 1-2 days.

thanks,
Scott

You could always just follow the OP and steep your grains in .75 gallons water and sparge with .25 gallons instead of squeezing. .

 

[A50SNAKE]

You could always just follow the OP and steep your grains in .75 gallons water and sparge with .25 gallons instead of squeezing. .

even with a BIAB set up instead of the normal all grain set ups? that was what I was wondering about, if its literally one to one, no matter what set up you run with.

thanks, Scott

 

[thunderwagn]

even with a BIAB set up instead of the normal all grain set ups? that was what I was wondering about, if its literally one to one, no matter what set up you run with.

thanks, Scott

I might be confused? You are still using extract right?

 

[A50SNAKE]

I might be confused? You are still using extract right?

following the OP's directions exactly for ingredients, however for the "stepping of the grains" I was thinking to steep them in a 1 gallon paint strainer bag, for ease of use and cleaning later on

then after that, still using the DME, and everything again as per OP recipe.

 

[RobertMT]

Yeah, just let it drain for however long you can stand i guess I've been reading about partial mash the last few hours and i seen it mentioned a few times now, not to squeeze the bag.

Jamil's book says 30min to steep but if your going to include base malt that changes.

Love to hear from people more knowledgeable in partial mashing.

I like to make graff with 2 row instead of DME, its way cheaper. Just not sure on the volume of the strike/mash water and AJ. I figure i would use 4lbs of 2 row.

According to the guideline in the book - you should use 1.5quarts to 1 pound of grain. So with the 4lbs of 2 row plus the 0.5lb crystal that would be about 6.75qt or - little over 1.5gal of water for 4.5lbs of grain with no sparge.

After the 60min boil it will reduce some so probably just partial mash with 1.5 gallons, boil, cool and add 4 gallons of AJ?

If you want to match OP recipe, 2lbs of DME converted to grain is 3lbs two row, assuming 65% efficiency, which is all you're going to get in small batch BIB.
so you would have 1.5qts per pound, 3 5/8 lbs total grain or 5.43qts water. You're going to lose qt or so soaking grains and at least another 2 qts to boil and trude on bottom of pot. You'll end up with the same gallon of hoped wort to add to AJ.

You don't normally sparge BIB, you raise the temp, over ten min to 170 and then drain the bag.
You're correct, if you squeeze the bag, you get more tannins and more cloudiness. Just hang your bag, by string, it doesn't take that long to drain, 3 5/8lbs of grain.