Graff less tart

[bfbf]

Drinking my Graff... mmm it is good.

Anyway when I make it next year would like to make it slightly less tart. What is the opposite of tart and how do you do it?

The recipe says maybe darker crystal malt, would this help? Would not like my cider any darker if possible, not sure it will make much difference though?

 

[ChshreCat]

You can adjust sweetness with crystal malts to try to hide some of the tartness. You might also look at what kind of apple juice you used and maybe use one that's a little less tart to start with.

 

[bfbf]

So a sweeter juice will taste less tart? I have already added quite a lot of sugar, so the problem could of been worse? Also does how carbonated the juice is affect how tart it tastes?

Also I use my own apples, so not that much choice. I guess I could use a different mix between desert apples and cookers. Not sure which ones are more tart? I assume cookers are more tart.

Come to think of it the apples were very tart, I did add chalk to reduce to acidity. But I think acidity and tartness are different?

Thanks for your reply was very helpful, sorry it just resulted in more questions! Thanks

 

[ChshreCat]

Acidity can give you a sour taste. That's why ascorbic acid is used to make sour candies.

Judging sweetness in something pre-fermentation is a little hard because you're tasting sugar that won't be there after the yeast has it's way with it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd try to get a less tart mix of apples if possible and then play around with your grains.

 

[bfbf]

Cheers for your help I think I am going to invest in a PH monitor and go for a low acidity and will also try and find some different apples to mix in.

Thanks again
Ben

 

[smokinghole]

Other option is to ditch the extract and do a small high temp mash. I just did some graff with 4lbs of grain at 158 and came out with some residual sweetness but enough tartness. Also as mentioned some juice has ascorbic added where some doesn't. If you want less tart get juice that says "apple juice" on the label.

 

[bfbf]

Other option is to ditch the extract and do a small high temp mash. I just did some graff with 4lbs of grain at 158 and came out with some residual sweetness but enough tartness. Also as mentioned some juice has ascorbic added where some doesn't. If you want less tart get juice that says "apple juice" on the label.

As I said the apple juice is from my trees, sadly no label on the trees

I did a high temp mash as I had to add the grain and the hops? What is the alternative to crystal malt extract? Why would it be less tart?

I am thinking just a bit more and a bit stronger crystal malt and some different apples. Maybe a bit later in the season

 

[Calder]

By mashing grains at a higher temperature he is producing more non-fermentables to make it sweeter.

You said you added sugar. sugar ferments 100% and will make it appear dryer due to the increased alcohol.

Suggestion: Use a higher crystal, maybe 120L. Do not add sugar. Add an extra pound of extract.

 

[smokinghole]

I missed the "my own apples" part. Oops.

What I did was take 6lbs of grain. Mashed it at 158f using brew in a bag leaving me with approx 2 gal of preboil volume. I then boiled the wort down to about 1 gallon and added it to the juice. I got a gravity of 1.078 with 1.5lbs of Jaggery sugar added. The grains used were what I had around that sounded good.

The grains were:
4lbs Maris Otter
1lb Torrified Wheat
1lb Crystal 60

I also intended this to be a sort of Christmas graff for next year so I added nutmeg and cinnamon during the end of the boil. I left the hops out as well.

Now if you still want to use extract Laaglander is the least fermentable of the extracts. So use that instead of M&F or Northwestern.

What type of apples are you using, regular eating apples or cider apples?

 

[ChshreCat]

If you want to see how a little more sweetness might affect the flavor you could add a little sugar or honey in the glass to what you have now as an experiment.

 

[madbaldman]

My last batch I made close to Brandon's original recipe (1 lb DME instead of 2). It came out rather tart but very nice with the cider aspects still intact. I tried to up the sweetness a bit on my current batch by going with more and heavier crystals (I also added the full 2 lb DME this time around). I just took my first taste out the fermenter and think I may have missed my mark. Definitely less sweet but also much less cidery - more beer like. I'll reserve final judgment till later of course but my next batch will be more like the first. I'm starting to like the light, crisp, tart flavors. Kind of like a Berliner Weiss - real good in hot weather.

 

[truckjohn]

1st things first - the malic tartness *Really* mellows out in the 1st 6 months or so.... You can easily have a batch of cider go from *Perfect* to blah/bland if you let it sit too long.... and a batch that is pure-unadulterated pucker when a few weeks old will smooth out to about right if you give it time....

If you are doing it with your own apples and want some for soon drinking rather than later drinking.... Supplement your own apples with "Boughten" apples that are less tart....

Say you are starting with old fashioned miscellaneous sour/bitter "cooking" apples.. and after aging - you feel it's still too tart.... Next batch - supplement your mix with apples that are sweet/bland... Good candidates for this are:
Ginger gold
Golden delicious
Yellow delicious
Red delicious
Anna
Dorset
Most any other early season apple

You could even crush in a bunch of asian pears - they are generally really sweet and bland/1-dimensional....

But... unfortunately, most of the characteristic "Apple" flavor comes from the malic acid.... Too many of those sweet apples and you end up with apple scented alcoholic water.....

Thanks

 

[bfbf]

1st things first - the malic tartness *Really* mellows out in the 1st 6 months or so.... You can easily have a batch of cider go from *Perfect* to blah/bland if you let it sit too long.... and a batch that is pure-unadulterated pucker when a few weeks old will smooth out to about right if you give it time....

If you are doing it with your own apples and want some for soon drinking rather than later drinking.... Supplement your own apples with "Boughten" apples that are less tart....

Say you are starting with old fashioned miscellaneous sour/bitter "cooking" apples.. and after aging - you feel it's still too tart.... Next batch - supplement your mix with apples that are sweet/bland... Good candidates for this are:
Ginger gold
Golden delicious
Yellow delicious
Red delicious
Anna
Dorset
Most any other early season apple

You could even crush in a bunch of asian pears - they are generally really sweet and bland/1-dimensional....

But... unfortunately, most of the characteristic "Apple" flavor comes from the malic acid.... Too many of those sweet apples and you end up with apple scented alcoholic water.....

Thanks

Cheers for your reply.

I am planning on planting some apple trees, will look into those varieties. But I assume any sweet bland apple will do?

Does the tart come from the bittersweet, bittersharp or both? anyone more so? I am thinking less hops may also reduce the tartness?

With age it is certainly getting better

Thanks

 

[truckjohn]

Most any really sweet dessert/eating apple will do.... The smart money would be to find one that comes ripe at the same time as your old apple trees - so you don't have to freeze fruit for a couple months prior to cider making.... May as well aim for one you like to eat...

The tart usually comes from the "Sharp" and "Bitter sharp" apples - Bitter usually means lots of tannins... Bitter sweet apples can have a bunch of tannin and lots of sugar, but not much Malic Acid.... They are really weird when you bite into them - Sweet, but make your mouth implode from the tannin....

We have the opposite problem over here - all the sweet, bland apples and juice you could ever want, but none that make good cider.... Folks around here usually go searching for crab apple trees to raid for their "Bitter" apples....

Thanks

 

[CidahMastah]

To chime in on this, one of the best sweet apples that has real body for regular drinking cider is the Golden delicious. It truly is a great sweet apple for drinking cder (non-alc).

Another great sweet is Red delicous. For your (america) tart apple I really like Northern Spys.

I just planted some goldrush, which are supposed to make unreal cider (sweet) and a sundance (sweet) but haven't had them give me fruit yet. From my own experience I can say spys make very good cider.

I plan on putting in 22 heirloom varieties next spring (reserved them already), including Kingston Black, yarlington Mill, etc. It will be several years before I am making cider with them, but I am looking forward to it! For now I will get by on the mature american dessert apple trees I have (Spys, red delicious, macintosh, empires)