Got a job interview at a brewery tomorrow.

[evrose]

Chefs aren't restaurant owners and vinters aren't winery owners.

Um... that's demonstrably untrue in thousands of cases.

 

[cyclogenesis]

I disagree. An owner wants to make money. You do that by hiring people to make a product that will make you money. Chefs aren't restaurant owners and vinters aren't winery owners.

Indeed... Success is often achieved by surrounding yourself with successful people...

If you want the venture to succeeded hope that the owner is a business man 1st.. plenty of second rate brewpubs around where the owner is a beer dude 1st, marketing expert 2nd..

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

I think the lack of an owners interest in a business will result in a less than full creative license. No business man would ever agree to a wild or sour beer considering the risk and time needed, but a beer-liking owner would in a heartbeat.
That being said there is no reason why a brewery with uninterested owners can't be successful. I guarantee I can turn ANYONE willing to try my beer into a beer lover with time and an open mind (he did try everything I brought after all, I just gotta find the style that is the most appealing).

 

[HokieBrewer]

When the time comes, frame the sour beer as a way to draw in the early adopters and demonstrate thought leadership in the local beer market

Don't worry, he'll know what it means

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

When the time comes, frame the sour beer as a way to draw in the early adopters and demonstrate thought leadership in the local beer market

Don't worry, he'll know what it means

 

[emjay]

Um... that's demonstrably untrue in thousands of cases.

Agreed. There are MANY cases of chef-owners. It tends to be especially common in both higher-end fine dining restaurants and small, casual family-owned joints. It's not an anomaly at all... I don't know how common it is in wineries, but I've seen more than a few family-owned and operated examples where the main vintner is either the principal owner or a direct descendant.

That being said, I don't think a somewhat ignorant (in terms of craft beer), business-oriented owner is a death sentence. I also largely disagree with the following two statements:

I think the lack of an owners interest in a business will result in a less than full creative license.

This is not even close to a guarantee. In the restaurant business it tends to be more true as almost everyone thinks they know food, so owners frequently dictate what the menu will look like (often to the restaurant's demise). But the craft beer business is a fair bit different in this regard. Any good businessperson who recognizes that they don't know a whole a lot about craft beer when they're opening a craft brewery will understand that they NEED to trust the people who do. On the other hand, if the business owner is a brewer themselves, or even just a beer nerd, they'll probably know exactly what they want. It's not a guarantee, but I would definitely say that the circumstances here are actually the MOST conducive to creative liberty on the brewer's part.

No business man would ever agree to a wild or sour beer considering the risk and time needed.

Not necessarily true. The industry has recognized that there is a rapidly growing interest in sours, and yet many breweries are doing nothing to serve it. Those that do are largely being heavily rewarded, and in an industry where things like IPAs are almost at a saturation point, sours are a great way to get ahead of the trend and position a new brewery for quick, early growth... a business owner would be a fool to dismiss an opportunity like that. Risk can be somewhat mitigated by small-scale development and careful execution, and any remaining risk, as well as the fact that they take considerably longer, can possibly even be MORE than offset by the heavy premium that sours command.

Again, not a guarantee that such an owner will go for it, but I don't think it's anywhere near as unlikely as you think. The bottom line is that a new brewery NEEDS a way to set themselves apart, and the prices that can be fairly charged for sours make up for a great deal of the risk (and timeline) associated with them anyways. If you can't think of a way to justify something to the owner, it'd very likely be a bad idea even if YOU were the owner anyways.

 

[rexbanner]

I think the lack of an owners interest in a business will result in a less than full creative license. No business man would ever agree to a wild or sour beer considering the risk and time needed, but a beer-liking owner would in a heartbeat.

Yep, total lack of vision. Really successful business people have an eye that sees not just current trends, but past that, to future trends. Personally I think it's extremely dumb to open a brew-pub if you don't like beer. You're basically trusting other people 100% to make a lot of decisions that you can't make yourself.

My sour beer has been a big hit. That's one reason why I am offering it as a year-round tap. You need to do something different these days because there are so many high-quality beers available.

 

[Vagrant]

I made the jump to commercial brewer in 2011. I attended Siebel back in '09-'10 and can say that does go a long way. Most of the people in my class already worked at breweries, so you may be able to work out a deal once the owner likes you to up your education on their dime through the web based course or splitting up the International Diploma program 2 weeks a year or something. Technical knowledge goes a long way too. To be honest, one of the hardest things to balance is when and where to display your technical knowledge when you first get in the door. Improvements to the process are always encouraged, but radical changes or criticism the 2nd week you're there isn't going to win you any friends (Unless there's mold above the mash tun or something obvious).

The single biggest factor is working hard. I was a brewer for a ~50k bbl/yr brewery where we had 24/7 coverage with 4 brewers and 4 cellarman. In a team environment like that, the weakest link sticks out pretty well and the guys that do work hard resent picking up the slack. You also have to be pretty adaptable. A year after I started working there, it was literally a completely different brewery with all the new equipment, procedures and building expansions (multiple).

If it's a brewpub, it's going to be a lot different than a fast paced production brewery. Both places are a good place to start though, for sure. It sounds like you have the passion, the crafting abilities and the knowledge to make a solid go in the brewing industry. It's a labor of love. I 'gave up' a career teaching Satellite Communications to make a wage I hadn't made since high school to work as a brewer/cellarman at my favorite brewery in the world. Winning.

Good luck mang! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me on the side.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

I made the jump to commercial brewer in 2011. I attended Siebel back in '09-'10 and can say that does go a long way. Most of the people in my class already worked at breweries, so you may be able to work out a deal once the owner likes you to up your education on their dime through the web based course or splitting up the International Diploma program 2 weeks a year or something. Technical knowledge goes a long way too. To be honest, one of the hardest things to balance is when and where to display your technical knowledge when you first get in the door. Improvements to the process are always encouraged, but radical changes or criticism the 2nd week you're there isn't going to win you any friends (Unless there's mold above the mash tun or something obvious).

The single biggest factor is working hard. I was a brewer for a ~50k bbl/yr brewery where we had 24/7 coverage with 4 brewers and 4 cellarman. In a team environment like that, the weakest link sticks out pretty well and the guys that do work hard resent picking up the slack. You also have to be pretty adaptable. A year after I started working there, it was literally a completely different brewery with all the new equipment, procedures and building expansions (multiple).

If it's a brewpub, it's going to be a lot different than a fast paced production brewery. Both places are a good place to start though, for sure. It sounds like you have the passion, the crafting abilities and the knowledge to make a solid go in the brewing industry. It's a labor of love. I 'gave up' a career teaching Satellite Communications to make a wage I hadn't made since high school to work as a brewer/cellarman at my favorite brewery in the world. Winning.

Good luck mang! If you have any questions, feel free to PM me on the side.

Sounds great. I have got tons of questions about Siebel and various other finer points of commercial brewing that I haven't encountered.
Its a brewpub opening up in a town of around 25k, but the distribution law for brewpubs in GA just changed so it will be pub sales+X gallons wholesale or something like that (drawing a blank on the number)
I try to have friendly casual shop talk with the pro's when I meet them, asking them about their personal techniques and ingredient preferences, trying to figure out the best way to combine efforts (even if I do feel I have more technical ability than some)
I'm a Communication Arts student at the moment. I decided to get into the beer business with a year left, so I'm just finishing up my diploma. But I'm finding my communication education background is really helping me make my business interactions as clear and decisive as possible. Semantics

I agree you need to be different, I worry that sour beers are becoming the new IIPA or barrel aged beer. I'm not worried about being different. I just want to make the best beer possible. And I feel sours are some of the highest tier offerings when done right...and addicting. Granted most people haven't even heard of sours outside of the beernerd world so I suppose they will always be different at their roots.

 

[passedpawn]

Not necessarily true. The industry has recognized that there is a rapidly growing interest in sours, and yet many breweries are doing nothing to serve it. Those that do are largely being heavily rewarded, and in an industry where things like IPAs are almost at a saturation point, sours are a great way to get ahead of the trend and position a new brewery for quick, early growth...

No. Made me laugh though. Only a few examples in this country (RR has had some success, but minimal, with sours, and Jolly Pumpkin, some other also rans). I bet they wish they were "heavily rewarded".

 

[emjay]

We're not saying YOU need to worry about being different, we're saying the owner does. Which hopefully will make him more receptive to "radical" ideas.

 

[emjay]

No. Made me laugh though. Only a few examples in this country (RR has had some success, but minimal, with sours, and Jolly Pumpkin, some other also rans). I bet they wish they were "heavily rewarded".

I acknowledged that risk is present and that one needs to be careful. Yes, it can bite you in the ass if you go too far with it... it's good to be ahead of the trend but not so far ahead that you're brewing tons of beer for a market that doesn't exist.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

American Sours are making waves lately (imo) with dogfishes noble rot, and New Belgiums lips of faith sours, (as well as RR, ect, but I don't know when they started doing theirs)
I would like to have rotation barrel aged sours (much like RR, I really like the idea of pairing grain bills with barrel type as well as bugs) and some experimental seasonal brett stuff (100% brett-X+caryophyllene or Humulene driven hop combos mostly) and of course fruit based stuff.
Its not so much the risk of bugged beers that get me, its the amount of time they take up in a conical. Though I was told this brewery has 6 fermenters. If that is the case that's a large variety of beers starting out, I feel like they could handle some stainless being taken up with aged sour/wilds(or taking up keg space). But if there is a standardized set of beers like: stout,amber,IPA,Pale ale, wit/belgian, and light lager are written into the business plan then it'll be hard for someone like me to influence it.

 

[passedpawn]

American Sours are making waves lately (imo) with dogfishes noble rot, and New Belgiums lips of faith sours, (as well as RR, ect, but I don't know when they started doing theirs)
I would like to have rotation barrel aged sours (much like RR, I really like the idea of pairing grain bills with barrel type as well as bugs) and some experimental seasonal brett stuff (100% brett-X+caryophyllene or Humulene driven hop combos mostly) and of course fruit based stuff.
Its not so much the risk of bugged beers that get me, its the amount of time they take up in a conical. Though I was told this brewery has 6 fermenters. If that is the case that's a large variety of beers starting out, I feel like they could handle some stainless being taken up with aged sour/wilds(or taking up keg space). But if there is a standardized set of beers like: stout,amber,IPA,Pale ale, wit/belgian, and light lager are written into the business plan then it'll be hard for someone like me to influence it.

Sours on tap don't sell. Good luck though. Know your market - they are not you.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

I don't enjoy sour beers off draft lines as much. I'd rather cork and cage them if it were an option. (Since I'd rather have vintages available) so for the sake of what I WANT to do I think I'd be ok considering the distribution law change down here.
BUT for the sake of this brewpub job, yea, I don't think I'll have the swing to ever do everything I want.

I think I have a good array of beers I'd make. I'm all over the board with my taste, these are simply my more creative and unlikely aspirations. I love and produce styles that mirror many genres and nationalities.

 

[logan3825]

I doubt to many breweries would take the time to sit on beer when they can make several batches of a smaller beer that they can turn faster. Craft may have a different feel but they are still there to make money.

 

[HokieBrewer]

American Sours are making waves lately (imo) with dogfishes noble rot, and New Belgiums lips of faith sours, (as well as RR, ect, but I don't know when they started doing theirs)
I would like to have rotation barrel aged sours (much like RR, I really like the idea of pairing grain bills with barrel type as well as bugs) and some experimental seasonal brett stuff (100% brett-X+caryophyllene or Humulene driven hop combos mostly) and of course fruit based stuff.
Its not so much the risk of bugged beers that get me, its the amount of time they take up in a conical. Though I was told this brewery has 6 fermenters. If that is the case that's a large variety of beers starting out, I feel like they could handle some stainless being taken up with aged sour/wilds(or taking up keg space). But if there is a standardized set of beers like: stout,amber,IPA,Pale ale, wit/belgian, and light lager are written into the business plan then it'll be hard for someone like me to influence it.

Here's the issue you're facing. Since the owner is not a beer guy, he has no dreams of being Sam Calagione. He dreams of being Jim Koch. The only way Sam Adams will sell a Sour or Wild is in a longshot six-pack, and the only reason they sell those is to appeal to the beer geek crowd that sees SA as too mainstream.

Basically what I'm saying is if the owner isn't a product guy, he will look at everything through an ROI perspective, and no one is getting rich through sours. Pitch the idea as a marketing tool, not a profit center.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Oh yea, my aspirations are only if I'm calling the shots one of these days. I don't think sours would get the green light (brett stuff would probably be fine tho)

 

[digitalhifi]

Sours on tap don't sell. Good luck though. Know your market - they are not you.

This is certainly not the case everywhere. Here in Houston if I see a sour or wild ale on tap I jump on it, because I 100% guarantee that if I don't get it right then, it will be sold out the next time I return.