Gose lacking any sourness

[TallahasseeBrew]

I recently made a gose, and everything seemed to go good, except now the beer is done, carbonated, chilled, and has no tartness or sourness at all, just saltiness. The saltiness is good, and where I like it for a gose, but it needs more sourness. I used this recipe http://byo.com/hops/item/2349-gose

It seems like the acid malt didn't do it's thing, I dunno.

Question is, what would you do? Im thinking of pitching a vial of white labs lacto WLP677, and letting it go for a while. the other option is to dump it, so, what the hell, right?

 

[microbusbrewery]

I don't think WLP677 will do much at this point. I've never had much luck with it unless I pitch it well before pitching yeast (minimum 3 day head start). IME it does it's best souring when it's not competing for food. Since you've already completed fermentation, I don't think it'll do much if anything.

I recently did one and pitched Wyeast 5335 about four days before pitching WLP029. It had noticeable tartness, but still lower than I was shooting for. I ended up dosing it with a little bit of lactic acid. We poured it at our club booth at a beer festival and it was well received, but the sourness level was still lower than I would have liked. It was about right for festival goers and those new to sours. One word of caution if you go this route, only add a little at a time. It has a much more refined character (read lacking complexity) compared to the lactic character that comes from using lactic acid bacteria.

 

[Suicid]

It seems like the acid malt didn't do it's thing, I dunno.

There is also coriander which has to bring some sourness as well. Didnt you forget to add it?

 

[TallahasseeBrew]

No, I put the corriander in, nicely ground too.

I pitched a tube of lacto before anyone replied, I guess I'll see how it goes, seems like its not going to work but, nothing can be done now

 

[tagz]

They don't have you use lacto in their gose recipe? Boo. If the late lacto pitch doesn't work I would sour a gallon on the side with grains and blend.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Wow, that is a shockingly --- SHOCKINGLY --- bad recipe! Gose is a sour, which means you need two things: (1) lactobacillus, and (2) a pH meter.* It's often kettle-soured, but you could alternatively sour it after the main fermentation. Problem is that most/all lacto is hop sensitive, so this probably won't work for you now.

That 2lbs of acid malt is a strange idea that won't get the pH anywhere near where a proper gose needs to be (low to mid 3's).

Sorry man, but that BYO recipe really screwed you. This is probably a dumper. If you try it again, look into Berliner Weisse techniques since it follows a very similar process.

* You can do it without a pH meter, but you're flying blind and just hoping for the best. Definitely not a wise, controlled method, and has clear risks that your lacto won't get the pH down enough.

 

[christyle]

Below is my go-to Berliner recipe on here, I love it. Maybe give it a shot next time? I like it because you have more control over the sour, pre boil. I will be giving it a shot using acid malt next time, and a C02 purge now that I have the ability. I did the saran wrap method twice now and it's come out well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=351918

 

[SpeedYellow]

Below is my go-to Berliner recipe on here, I love it. Maybe give it a shot next time? I like it because you have more control over the sour, pre boil. I will be giving it a shot using acid malt next time, and a C02 purge now that I have the ability. I did the saran wrap method twice now and it's come out well.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=351918

Fair enough recipe, but a couple concerns:
(1) Using a handful of grains as a lacto source has some real risks involved, as you don't know what you're getting. Can be really nasty stuff.

(2) That unknown lacto can be heterofermentative, meaning it ferments a lot of your sugars. So by boiling afterwards, you may be boiling off a lot of alcohol.

A more controlled, less risky process is to use a commercial lacto source, probiotic, or yogurt. Lots of success there. I'd suggest making a few lacto starters and pitch the one that soured the most and quickest with least fermentation of sugars. Also want to lower the wort pH to around 4.5 BEFORE adding the lacto. A few reasons for that.

 

[christyle]

I read a lot of recipes after starting this one the first time, and it definitely worried me. I've had good luck so far, so we'll see how it goes. I was hoping to try the acid malt next time to get the pH lower so that it's tougher for anything but the proper lacto to take hold, as well as the c02 purge. I hadn't thought much about the lacto eating up the sugars pre boil, but if my OG is on target, shouldn't that be a proper indication of the correct type of Lacto?

I was hoping for a cleaner sour, to give me the base berliner (non fruited) in a nice and easy drinking sour, as I love the Bruery's Hottenroth. I'll see if the acid malt and purge gets me there or not. I will be trying to go for a higher pH as well, to see if that keeps some of that milky sour taste out. For now, I'll stick with my spiked grain source of lacto, but will try the cultured lacto if it becomes problematic.

 

[SpeedYellow]

I read a lot of recipes after starting this one the first time, and it definitely worried me. I've had good luck so far, so we'll see how it goes. ...

Yeah, for sure the raw grains often works, there's just that element of risk plus the inevitable funk. One of my recent starters used raw grain and it was NASTY compared to more controlled lacto sources (a couple probiotics and WY 5335). I maybe could have used it, but it literally scared me ... the smell, the pellicle.... blech. Meanwhile, other lacto sources smell and taste wonderful.

... I was hoping to try the acid malt next time to get the pH lower so that it's tougher for anything but the proper lacto to take hold, as well as the c02 purge. ...

You want to use lactic acid instead of acid malt to pre-acidify the wort before pitching lacto. Otherwise you'd be screwing up your mash pH horribly.

...I hadn't thought much about the lacto eating up the sugars pre boil, but if my OG is on target, shouldn't that be a proper indication of the correct type of Lacto?
...

Sure; if you're checking SG before and after your lacto and there's not much change, then your lacto isn't eating your sugars.

...I was hoping for a cleaner sour, to give me the base berliner (non fruited) in a nice and easy drinking sour, as I love the Bruery's Hottenroth. I'll see if the acid malt and purge gets me there or not. I will be trying to go for a higher pH as well, to see if that keeps some of that milky sour taste out. For now, I'll stick with my spiked grain source of lacto, but will try the cultured lacto if it becomes problematic.

If you want a cleaner sour, then you *definitely* want a commercial lacto source or a probiotic. Much much cleaner than grain. Seriously apples to oranges.

 

[christyle]

Yeah, for sure the raw grains often works, there's just that element of risk plus the inevitable funk. One of my recent starters used raw grain and it was NASTY compared to more controlled lacto sources (a couple probiotics and WY 5335). I maybe could have used it, but it literally scared me ... the smell, the pellicle.... blech. Meanwhile, other lacto sources smell and taste wonderful.

I've never used a lacto starter, just the sour mash. Using the saran wrap has prevented it's need to form a pellicle I think, I've only seen minor traces of one. It always seems to have an off smell, but has turned out fairly good in the end.

You want to use lactic acid instead of acid malt to pre-acidify the wort before pitching lacto. Otherwise you'd be screwing up your mash pH horribly.

If I'm not pitching a lacto starter, the reason for concern over the acid malt would be poor conversion or something with a low pH from acid malt? I guess that's why people put it in at the end? I will probably mix it in after the initial mash is complete. This was the recipe I was hoping to follow for dropping the pH before leaving the mash to sour:

http://anarchylane.com/blog/?p=1442

Sure; if you're checking SG before and after your lacto and there's not much change, then your lacto isn't eating your sugars.

I was just referring to the OG when I go to pitch the US-05, i've never measured the gravity before lacto takes hold.

If you want a cleaner sour, then you *definitely* want a commercial lacto source or a probiotic. Much much cleaner than grain. Seriously apples to oranges.

I want to try the acid malt and c02 purge one more time, and then I will be giving cultured bacteria a go. One less vial to buy! It really tastes great to me as a fruited beer for now, but im sure it could be improved. I will definitely keep these comments saved to refer back to. Thanks!

 

[Qhrumphf]

Yeah, for sure the raw grains often works, there's just that element of risk plus the inevitable funk. One of my recent starters used raw grain and it was NASTY compared to more controlled lacto sources (a couple probiotics and WY 5335). I maybe could have used it, but it literally scared me ... the smell, the pellicle.... blech. Meanwhile, other lacto sources smell and taste wonderful.

You want to use lactic acid instead of acid malt to pre-acidify the wort before pitching lacto. Otherwise you'd be screwing up your mash pH horribly.

Sure; if you're checking SG before and after your lacto and there's not much change, then your lacto isn't eating your sugars.

If you want a cleaner sour, then you *definitely* want a commercial lacto source or a probiotic. Much much cleaner than grain. Seriously apples to oranges.

In my experience, if you perform a crushed grain-innoculated sour mash, but drop the pH to <4.5 beforehand with lactic acid, it comes out incredibly clean. Lower pH inhibits all the nasty stuff and allows just the lactic bugs to work. Then boil, then hit with neutral ale yeast. Works for my Berliner Weisse. I'm going to try the same process (but less souring time) with Gose and Lichtenhainer next month.

 

[SpeedYellow]

...
If I'm not pitching a lacto starter, the reason for concern over the acid malt would be poor conversion or something with a low pH from acid malt? I guess that's why people put it in at the end? I will probably mix it in after the initial mash is complete. This was the recipe I was hoping to follow for dropping the pH before leaving the mash to sour:

http://anarchylane.com/blog/?p=1442
...

Oh wait, I assumed you were kettle souring, but I see you're sour mashing. That's really gone out of favor due to the risks involved. If you run off your wort, you can pasteurize it easily, so you have a much less funky lacto fermentation if using a clean source. Again, it's a question of risk, and how funky you want your beer.

If you do sour mash, then yeah adding a bunch of acid malt *might* work ok. But 10% may not do it, since pH is non-linear and Weyermann didn't go anywhere near that low when they concluded "0.1 pH per 1% acid malt" (they only analyzed the mid 5's). So it would be iterative, and I suspect acid malt may take a few minutes to stabilize; another reason to use lactic acid.

...
I was just referring to the OG when I go to pitch the US-05, i've never measured the gravity before lacto takes hold...

If you're doing a sour mash and not measuring OG before adding lacto, then you won't know exactly how much sugar your lacto is eating up. Just sort of a ballpark. Another reason to kettle sour!

 

[SpeedYellow]

In my experience, if you perform a crushed grain-innoculated sour mash, but drop the pH to <4.5 beforehand with lactic acid, it comes out incredibly clean. Lower pH inhibits all the nasty stuff and allows just the lactic bugs to work...

Sure, clearly it works sometimes since many folks report success. But it definitely doesn't work ALL the time -- my super-nasty crushed grain starter last week had a starting pH of 4.5-4.6 but still came out terrifying. So there's certainly some variability there. Maybe I just need to have more faith in the bugs, but... did I mention how bad it smelled?

 

[christyle]

Sure, clearly it works sometimes since many folks report success. But it definitely doesn't work ALL the time -- my super-nasty crushed grain starter last week had a starting pH of 4.5-4.6 but still came out terrifying. So there's certainly some variability there. Maybe I just need to have more faith in the bugs, but... did I mention how bad it smelled?

Mine have smelled similarly, but have come out just fine. Doesn't Brett smell terrible when fermenting as well?

 

[Qhrumphf]

Sure, clearly it works sometimes since many folks report success. But it definitely doesn't work ALL the time -- my super-nasty crushed grain starter last week had a starting pH of 4.5-4.6 but still came out terrifying. So there's certainly some variability there. Maybe I just need to have more faith in the bugs, but... did I mention how bad it smelled?

Well, since you're effectively going with spontaneous fermentation, always going to be variability. I'd be curious to see how much Lambic the Belgians dump and then discard the barrel because it's not up to par. I know it's a significant amount.

 

[tagz]

Sure, clearly it works sometimes since many folks report success. But it definitely doesn't work ALL the time -- my super-nasty crushed grain starter last week had a starting pH of 4.5-4.6 but still came out terrifying. So there's certainly some variability there. Maybe I just need to have more faith in the bugs, but... did I mention how bad it smelled?

Grimm Artisan Ales uses the sour wort method with crushed grains for their lacto beers. If a commercial brewery can use the technique, it means you can eliminate variability with a sound process.