Gordon Strong's New Book

[MalFet]

For the curious, here's the actual passage:

But why nothing on extract beers?
Ok, I said I was going to have strong opinions, so here's my first one: there's nothing in this book on brewing extract beers because making extract beers isn't really brewing any more than heating up TV dinners is cooking. When you outsource wort production, you are removing much of what the brewer does. You can make beer that way, but you won't be able to make the best beer possible or get the full value from this book unless you make the commitment to learn the complete brewing process.

You can make good extract beers but you can't make all the styles. You have to make compromises; you know you're cutting corners. You don't have full control over your system or ingredients. You can still have good results, and you can make beer quickly, but you really haven't mastered brewing. If all you want to do is make good beer quickly, and you are only interested in making a subset of the styles, then by all means remain an extract brewer.

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with making extract beer. We all started that way. I made 23 extract beers in my first year-and-a-half of brewing. I entered 11 of them in 13 competitions, and won four best-of-shows and more than 25 medals. Six batches didn't turn out very well, and one was dumped (thus, I learned lessons in humility and persistence). Along the way, I learned how to pay attention to sanitation, avoid oxidation, manage a fermentation, and use different forms of ingredients. All of those were useful skills, but I had learned about as much as I could and couldn't do all the things I wanted to do. I had hit a plateau and knew I had to stepu up to all-grain if I was to keep moving ahead.

Once I moved to all-grain, I had so much more to learn, but I got more enjoyment out of it. Finally, I could make a proper Kölsch and a hefeweizen that wasn't too dark. I could make a Belgian dubbel and other beers that use dark Munich malt. I could get the proper attenuation in a Düsseldorf-style altbier using a step mash. Finally, I felt like I was brewing. I no longer felt like I was sitting at the kiddy table when I talked to other brewer friends> As I write this, it has been more than 12 years since I made that step, and I have not regretted it once.

Everybody defines the boundaries of brewing someplace, and there's no reason those boundaries can't be reduced to require growing your own barley or expanded to include merely adding an orange slice to a blue moon. It's reasonable to feel insulted by being excluded from his definition, but comparing what he's doing to anti-semitism, misogyny, and homophobia is silly (and probably a bit insulting to the people who have suffered when asshats like Gibson have gotten power). It's a bit Godwin's Law-ish.

 

[stanley1271]

Thanks MalFet for posting that passage. Right now I am an extract brewer who is absorbing all the knowledge I can and I have to say that I whole heartedly agree with Mr. Strong.
- You can make good beer with extracts.
- You do hit a wall on what you can make.
- You do have more control over what you can make with AG than with Extract.

Personally I do not think I will ever give up doing Extract beers, simply for the ease of use. I do plan to go to AG at some point and thats why I am doing all the reading I can on every aspect of the brewing process. I eventually want to have that precise control over what I am making.

I think the biggest key that was skipped over in that passage was: "strong opinions". These are his opinions and really should not be taken to heart. Then again this is just my "strong opinions" anyway.

-Stanley

 

[remilard]

All this over the extract thing? Wait until you see what he says about autolysis.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Wow.

I have read just about everything I can get my hands on regarding brewing. I have collected just about every worthy text on the subject, including the entire classic Styles series (Yes, even Lambic and the Original Pale Ale), every collegiate text I could locate, and even a few texts regarding water chemistry and microbiology.

I forget why and where but I either heard, read, or watch "something" about Jamil (likely the show turned me off) and "something" about Gordon that, just, screamed, douchebozzle to me about them and I have just flat out avoided reading anything by either of them.

After reading Bob's misguided rants I realize that I no longer remember what, when, or how I came to this assertion of these two accomplished brewers and that it's been so long i really dunno if my assertion was mis-interpreted through lack of context.

So, I ordered both JZ's "Yeast" and GS "Better Beer".

 

[doctorRobert]

After reading Bob's misguided rants I realize that I no longer remember what, when, or how I came to this assertion of these two accomplished brewers and that it's been so long i really dunno if my assertion was mis-interpreted through lack of context.

So, I ordered both JZ's "Yeast" and GS "Better Beer".

Good choice the yeast book is great.

And I think they are both a bit douchey at times, I mean, they enter nearly 40 beers into a homebrew competition every year. What kind of nut job has the time to brew and enter that many beers?

 

[doctorRobert]

All this over the extract thing? Wait until you see what he says about autolysis.

Imagine if he uses secondary fermenters, no chills and an aluminum pot. That would really start a fire.

 

[ayoungrad]

So, I ordered both JZ's "Yeast" and GS "Better Beer".

I just did the same.

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

Wow.

I have read just about everything I can get my hands on regarding brewing. I have collected just about every worthy text on the subject, including the entire classic Styles series (Yes, even Lambic and the Original Pale Ale), every collegiate text I could locate, and even a few texts regarding water chemistry and microbiology.

I forget why and where but I either heard, read, or watch "something" about Jamil (likely the show turned me off) and "something" about Gordon that, just, screamed, douchebozzle to me about them and I have just flat out avoided reading anything by either of them.

After reading Bob's misguided rants I realize that I no longer remember what, when, or how I came to this assertion of these two accomplished brewers and that it's been so long i really dunno if my assertion was mis-interpreted through lack of context.

So, I ordered both JZ's "Yeast" and GS "Better Beer".

Sick coincidence, I JUST ordered both of these books. Maybe Gordon should hire Bob because it seems he's helping with book sales.

FWIW, whether they are douchnozzles or not is pretty much irrelevant to me (and I don't know if they are or not, don't really care). Whether they are DBs would affect whether or not I hang out with either of them at length (which I don't expect to do anyway); I just want to read a good book about brewing beer. The content of the book is what I care about.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Good choice the yeast book is great.

And I think they are both a bit douchey at times, I mean, they enter nearly 40 beers into a homebrew competition every year. What kind of nut job has the time to brew and enter that many beers?

Been brewing nearly 6 year now. Aside from local critiques from BJCP certs, I have never had the inclination to enter a comp. And likely never will.

So, yeah, 40 beers for a comp is lost on me. And with that many entires, it tends to make the odds a bit more favorable for the entrant.

 

[Homercidal]

Well, his opinion on some things is pretty strong, but he comes right out at the start and says it is. He also says MANY times that there are lots of ways to do most things and he explains why he prefers his method, but always encourages you to find what fits for YOUR brewing.

I tend to agree with him on the extract thing. Really, you can make great beer doing extract, but it takes just as much work to do right, and you are limited in a few ways. He isn't so much putting down extract brewers, as much explaining why HE doesn't brew extract, and after all, it's an ADVANCED brewing book. There are several other good books (which he mentions) that cater to all brewing methods.

I think it's great that he comes right out at the start and lets you know that if you are an extract brewer, and aren't planing on doing AG, then this isn't the right book for you. It doesn't come off as douchey IMO, just stating his opinion and explaining it.

I found myself reading and thinking, "Is this better than what I do now? Would it make sense for me to change to doing this other method?" Quite often it's a matter of personal preference, or convenience rather than one way is better.

 

[Homercidal]

Been brewing nearly 6 year now. Aside from local critiques from BJCP certs, I have never had the inclination to enter a comp. And likely never will.

So, yeah, 40 beers for a comp is lost on me. And with that many entires, it tends to make the odds a bit more favorable for the entrant.

Competitions are a great way to have others sample your beer and discover what would help in brewing a specific style. Brewing for comp is honestly the best way to improve your methods, since you are forced to brew to a target.

This is separate from just brewing what tastes good to you, or just brewing a tasty beer. There is a LOT of great beer that doesn't fit a style well enough to score well in a competition.

The point of a competition is to target a style and try to brew it. Brewing 40 beers is trying to expand your expertise beyond a few styles. I know a guy who was brewing nearly every week. Sort of like a mini-Jamil. He is lined up to brew for a new microbrewery nearby. He set out to become a brewer from the start and brewing that often was the only way that made it possible to brew all of those styles that you need to be a pro brewer.

 

[ArcaneXor]

Is anyone going for the slippery slope argument that by extension, you need to be growing and malting your own barley and growing your own hops to *truly* make your beer?

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Competitions are a great way to have others sample your beer and discover what would help in brewing a specific style. Brewing for comp is honestly the best way to improve your methods, since you are forced to brew to a target.

This is separate from just brewing what tastes good to you, or just brewing a tasty beer. There is a LOT of great beer that doesn't fit a style well enough to score well in a competition.

The point of a competition is to target a style and try to brew it. Brewing 40 beers is trying to expand your expertise beyond a few styles. I know a guy who was brewing nearly every week. Sort of like a mini-Jamil. He is lined up to brew for a new microbrewery nearby. He set out to become a brewer from the start and brewing that often was the only way that made it possible to brew all of those styles that you need to be a pro brewer.

Not once did I say I do not understand the concept of comps, just that I have never felt inclined to participate. being active in a HomeBrew club is another way to get valid, honest, feedback on product. Especially if the club is fortunate to have several certified judges. However, I do not hold BJCP judges to as high a regard as the cert would promise. And once you have become familiar with the process, and the flaws, you begin to better assertain a persons level of understanding regarding beer and who's opinion, or assertations you can trust.

I have seen too much and they are still bound by human subjectivism.

 

[bierhaus15]

Does the book make any mention of the brewing system this guy uses to brew his beers? I would be a lot more impressed with his supposed brewing ability if he was winning all these medals off of a $100 Home Depot special than some semi-pro system with all the filters, chillers, glycol fermenters, and stuff.

Also, I hope he has to pay $9 an entry for the NHC like everyone else.

 

[Homercidal]

Not once did I say I do not understand the concept of comps, just that I have never felt inclined to participate. being active in a HomeBrew club is another way to get valid, honest, feedback on product. Especially if the club is fortunate to have several certified judges. However, I do not hold BJCP judges to as high a regard as the cert would promise. And once you have become familiar with the process, and the flaws, you begin to better assertain a persons level of understanding regarding beer and who's opinion, or assertations you can trust.

I have seen too much and they are still bound by human subjectivism.

It's great if you have a good club with certified members, but not everyone has that luxury, nor feel that they can trust the members of their club to give honest feedback like they would encounter with a competition.


You said entering 40 beers was lost on you, so I attempted to explain why someone would enter so many comps. Trusting a guy at a homebrew club is probably no better than trusting the person judging a competition as far as the human factor is concerned.

 

[Homercidal]

Does the book make any mention of the brewing system this guy uses to brew his beers? I would be a lot more impressed with his supposed brewing ability if he was winning all these medals off of a $100 Home Depot special than some semi-pro system with all the filters, chillers, glycol fermenters, and stuff.

Also, I hope he has to pay $9 an entry for the NHC like everyone else.

I have not read the whole book, but he says he prefers carboys for fermenting, even though he has a conical. So far I have not got a good idea of what he has for a whole system, but it seems to be very similar to what the average AG brewer might have. I have not seen any fancy automated equipment if that is what you are looking for. I think I read that he isn't doin gHERMS or RIMS yet. I could be wrong.

 

[Benthic]

Is anyone going for the slippery slope argument that by extension, you need to be growing and malting your own barley and growing your own hops to *truly* make your beer?

Do I need to grow my own wheat and sugarcane, and mine my own salt in order to make truly make bread?

In my opinion, the difference between extract brewing and all grain brewing is similar to the difference between making brownies from a packaged mix versus making them from scratch. When you're done, you have brownies (probably good ones) either way. Using a mix is certainly easier and the very best brownies are probably made from scratch. But either way, you're baking.

Brian

 

[ArcaneXor]

Ultimately, who cares? I enjoyed my progression from hopped malt extract to extract brewing to partial mash to all grain. I have had awesome extract beers brewed by friends. One might even argue that to take something as restricting as malt extract and turning it into award-winning beer is as much as skill as creating an all-grain brew from scratch. The advanced extract brewer can always enhance her/his repertoire by partial mashing, opening the door to virtually all the same beer styles that all grain brewers have access to. They are all valid ways to enjoy our hobby. And the emphasis should be that it is a hobby, and should be enjoyed by all brewers in a way that makes *them* happy.

That said, I do prefer mashing my own potatoes or making my own oven fries over buying the pre-packaged stuff from the grocery store.

 

[Denny330]

I am 200 pages into the book. This is by far the best book for where I am in homebrewing right now. This book fit in right where there was a void.

 

[StMarcos]

Yeah, yer not really a brewer if you can't alter the N content of the barley by manipulating soil fertility. And if you can't tailor your kilning profile, you've lost a good deal of control over the final beer.

You're not going to microwave a good steak, but you can microwave some leftover soup, and you wouldn't know if it was nuked or boiled on the stovetop.

Gordon obviously has a point that you have more control with AG, but digs a pit for himself if you think of the analogy in my first paragraph above.

 

[doctorRobert]

Yeah, yer not really a brewer if you can't alter the N content of the barley by manipulating soil fertility. And if you can't tailor your kilning profile, you've lost a good deal of control over the final beer.

You're not going to microwave a good steak, but you can microwave some leftover soup, and you wouldn't know if it was nuked or boiled on the stovetop.

Gordon obviously has a point that you have more control with AG, but digs a pit for himself if you think of the analogy in my first paragraph above.

Not really, because you'd be a malster if you malted your own barley, and you'd be a farmer if you grew your barley. Not a brewer.

 

[ChemEMc]

Good lord, wasn't this a thread about reviewing the book? All that needed to be said was that this book focuses on all grain brewing, but everything not pertaining to the mash is still relevant to an extract brewer.

And if you think that not being a fan of extract brewing invalidates this proven expert homebrewers opinions, just move along, that point has been made and the dead horse is sufficiently beat. Read the book and find a new talking point.

 

[doctorRobert]

 

[Homercidal]

Meh. Everyone's entitled to his own opinion. He draws his line in the sand, but gives his reasoning. He sets it all out front several times at the start. If that's not for you, feel free to pass on the book.

 

[jbrookeiv]

Went on Amazon to purchase Gordon's book and ended up buying the following. I got some readin' to do!

Brewing with Wheat (Brewing Technology)
Stan Hieronymus

Brewing Better Beer: Master Lessons for Advanced Homebrewers
Gordon Strong

Farmhouse Ales: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition
Phil Markowski

Wild Brews: Culture and Craftsmanship in the Belgian Tradition
Jeff Sparrow

Yeast: The Practical Guide to Beer Fermentation (Brewing Elements Series)
Jamil Zainasheff, Chris White

 

[Bob]

Thanks to MalFet for posting the relevant passage. I apologize to anyone who thinks my ranting is tiresome. I do not agree that it is misguided, however.

When Mr Strong says, "making extract beers isn't really brewing", even read in the context of the greater quote (which I do agree takes the heat off it somewhat), I still fail to see how that's not insulting. He should have used different terms. It's belittling.

In regard to control, a knowledge of what X extract results in Y situation is no different than knowing how any other ingredient responds in the brewing process. For example, I know what Muntons Extra-Light extract is mashed from, what color it gives and what sort of apparent degree of fermentation I can expect from it. I can give you several examples from the past 24 hours here on HBT where an all-grain brewer needed his hand held in order to understand his ingredients. Control? I have more with extract than many all-grain brewers have with their systems.

There's not some magical switch that gets thrown when you mix crushed grain with hot water to a more thick consistency than a steep, some mystical happenstance that means you have more control. Control comes from skill developed through experience and theoretical knowledge, not the form in which your ingredients arrive from the homebrew shop.

That's why I'm ranting - the assumption is faulty. If you get uppity and dismissive over a faulty assumption, you're just plain wrong. QED.

In my opinion, the difference between extract brewing and all grain brewing is similar to the difference between making brownies from a packaged mix versus making them from scratch. When you're done, you have brownies (probably good ones) either way. Using a mix is certainly easier and the very best brownies are probably made from scratch. But either way, you're baking.

I think your metaphor is close. I think the difference between tinned extract kit brewing and all-grain brewing is similar. Making brownies from a packaged mix (just add water!) is exactly the same as diluting the syrup in a tinned beer kit. Making extract-and-steep beers from your own recipe is like using self-rising flour instead of plain flour and baking powder.

For that matter, brewing from any kit is like making a pre-packaged food kit from the grocery. And how many all-grain brewers buy all-grain kits? I suspect there's more than a few.

As you say, either way you're making something yummy!

@GilaMinumBeer: I'm sorry you find what I have to say tiresome. Let me hit you with something: I know exactly why I have a strong "button-pushed" reaction to folks like JZ and Palmer and Strong. It's not a reaction to them. It's a reaction to how they're lionized by homebrewers. It's that they're viewed by the homebrewing community as Prophets whose words cannot be gainsaid, whose recommendations are taken as holy writ. Yeah, they're successful homebrewers and very knowledgeable blokes. Probably nice guys, too, though I've never met any of them. But they're still blokes, they're still fallible, and they're still hobbyists. It irritates me when I write something supported by actual degreed brewing scientists and expert professionals and someone on HBT insists that a quip from one of the Prophets on a podcast trumps the peer-reviewed work of an MBAA member (not that they can't be wrong, either, but what are the odds?).

You dig?

Bob

 

[timbudtwo]

Let's look at baking (in the simple context of brownies).

This is now a thread about brownies:

 

[jfowler1]

I can't help it. I just really like brownies.


EDIT - so, my copy should arrive shortly. Any more reviews or POV's?

 

[doctorRobert]

He was the guest of the brewing network's Sunday Session. You may want to listen, but if you're already getting the book probably not necessary unless you already like listening to the podcasts.

 

[Zen_Brew]

I have listened to about 2/3 of the Sunday Session podcast Gordon was on. I think I will eventually have to get his book. One technique he talked about blew my mind. Now I'm sure others have known about and possibly followed this technique, but I had never considered it.

They talked about how he will often cold steep his dark grains like chocolate or carafe. Now I had heard about steeping these once or twice before, but what I hadn't considered was the fact that it allows you to not have to buffer your water so heavily with salts to balance the PH against the acidity these grains add in the mash. I know when I do stouts, porters, etc I am always adding big additions of salts to buffer the brewing water as Seattle water is extremely soft.
It would be nice to not have to worry about counteracting the dark malts in the mash, as Gordon described cold steeping them and adding the steep mixture late in the boil. I'd still have to do a bit of adjustment to Seattle water, but it wouldn't be the 5 or 6 grams of multiple salts I add now.