Going All Grain

[Wingnutt73]

So I am taking the plunge into All Grain Brewing. Daddy came into some cash and I'm going for it. I do have a few questions however before I make the purchase on a MLT and a HLT.
Do I need both? If not I could use the extra cash to get another keg setup.

I am for sure going for a Cooler Mashtun. I'm not really sure about the sparging process. It sounds like you run the wort through it again using the sparge method and then use hotter water from the HLT to get the last bit of goodness out. Is this correct?

I guess my main thing is If im Going all Grain do I need a HLTa MLT and a Sparge arm? and if so in what order would I set them up in my 3 tier brew rig? I'm not getting pumps so gravity will be doing the work here.

I feel like the noob again starting all over. Thanks in advance. Hopping to get all this stuff by the weekend and mash in on Sunday!!!!!

 

[user 194292]

I'm interested to know as well. My brew system will be here tomorrow!!! Got the 20 gal three pak from Highlander Brewing and it has what they call the sparge-o-matic installed in the lid of the MT. Totally, completely new at all this!

 

[Hello]

In a weird way starting to do AG and feeling like a newbie was fun for me. Congrats on getting some cash to invest in your hobby!

I'll give my opinions and of course, others will weigh in.

Your HLT will sit at the highest point on your rig. Below that, the MLT and below that, the kettle. The kettle, which will likely sit soundly on top of your burner will hopefully be there through the sparge and boil process. Moving stuff sucks.

Here is what I do when I brew inside with a cooler. I do indeed recommend three vessels if you're doing any batch or fly sparging because you need a vessel to hold your first and second runnings. I do not fly sparge. I have heard the pros about it but I've also heard that "it doesn't matter" arguments. I simply have not done it and put my money somewhere else, probably back in my belly with beer.

I typically boil my strike water with my boil kettle. I then use my strike water to start my mash in my cooler. At that point, when the mash is done, I drain into the boil kettle and use some older economy pot that I bought when I was first starting out for my sparge water. I have an induction cooktop so the runnings from the MLT are going into the kettle on the floor unless I'm using my pump. Either way, I have my sparge water in my HLT (technically speaking) on my burner. Once I am done sparging my kettle goes on the burner and you can run with the rest.

Your savings that you mention is going to be from the decision to not fly sparge. Again, up to you and someone can weigh in on why you should do it. Then you decide. Again, I do not. The savings though is probably not significant. I can say there is a bit more time involved in fly sparging but the argument for doing it is said to be increased efficiency. I think many AG brewers start with batch sparging because it is supposedly easier. That is what I was told and when I made the move my nerves suggested that it was best I started out with a simpler process.

From time to time with a lower gravity beer I do no sparge and in that case I don't need the third vessel. No sparge isn't going to work as well with higher gravity beers, cooler (MLT) space is an issue, and efficiency is also reduced so you have to make up for it in the grain bill. I still do it because I kind of like it but I do spend a little more to get more grain, if that makes sense.

One take away is my HLT, as I will refer to it, is indeed some 5 gallon economy polar ware pot. It was inexpensive and great for when I started out. It does just fine heating my sparge water and will heat strike water, I just favor the other kettle because of the valve it has on it. I have not drilled out the 5 gallon pot yet.

Someone is bound to mention BIAB. Something to consider for sure. I am happy to have both options though. I do BIAB from time to time and definitely do it when I am trying a small gallon batch. For that though, if you want to do a 5 gallon recipe a 10 gallon pot is the minimal sized pot you'd want.

 

[Wingnutt73]

So I was going to go with a 10gal Mashtun. It sounds like I coulg get away with a 5gal HLT to sparge with. When you say batch sparge are you meaning you just run the water using a tube from the HLT or just dump it on top of the grain bed in the Mashtun? That sounds like it would work but using a sparge arm to me sounds liek a more controlled way about it. Yes it may take longer but I would think you are getting better results washing the grains (which I guess this is what this step is for). Thanks again and Good info Hello.

 

[Hello]

Your strike water for most recipes should be under 5 gallons (if you do 5-6 gallon batches) so yes, a 5 gallon pot for an HLT will be okay in my book.

So you know what mashing in is, right? That is you take your initial strike water, sometimes about 1/2 of your total water, and you mix that in with the grains in your mash tun and wait a certain amount of time. When that time is up, for me it is often 60 minutes, you begin drain your mash tun into your boil kettle. This is called your first runnings.

Before you begin draining into your kettle, you slowly open the valve (never let it rip on open) and drain some of the runnings into a container. This is called vorlaufing. What you're doing is taking the initial outpour of wort and collecting it so it doesn't get into the boil kettle. It will be less clear and likely have some grain bits in it. That stuff you collect through vorlaufing will go CAREFULLY back into your mash tun right on top of the grain. The purpose is to not disturb the grain bed. The amount of wort you collect in this process is a gallon or less.

After the wort is running a bit more clear, let it drain into the kettle. Slowly is key or you will compact the grain bed too quickly and you'll get a clog, basically. Grain can turn into basically concrete if you let the water go through it too quickly and compact it too much. There is a way to recover from this but best to avoid it all together.

So now your cooler MLT is just trickling and there's nothing much coming out of the valve. That is fine. You now take your strike water that is heated to the recommended temp. Pour 1/2 of that into your MLT and stir like it owes you money. I let mine sit for a moment (10-15 minutes) and then you repeat that vorlauf process. Again, when you collect the wort for the first time after adding more water, you carefully put the wort back into the MLT on top.

So your wort is running into the kettle for a second time. It stops, mostly and you repeat that process with the rest of your strike water. You can pour the water in with a container or you can use a hose from your HLT. Many use a hose of sorts. I sometimes use a pump or a gallon sized container. You just need to get the water from the HLT to the MLT.

The third time you collect your wort from your MLT, you vorlauf, but I do not always pour that wort back into the MLT. Also, as I continue that process of adding water, stirring, etc, the amount of wort I collect during the vorlauf process is reduced. You'll notice it is getting lighter and lighter so by the third time you've done this, that wort can be discarded if you don't need it. You'll know if you need it. Your boil volume will be low, your gravity will be high etc. But if your gravity is low already you don't need to go adding some watered down wort to it.

Batch spraging means that in a couple of batches you add more water to rinse the grains that mashed for an hour. that is the way I explain it to people.

Fly sparging is a continual process of letting water shower the grains in such a careful manner that all of that sparge water is added as you continue to drain your wort, I believe. Again, many good reasons to do it and reasons not to do it for sake of time and the "why bother" notion I've been presented with. I do not want to steer you away from wanting to do it, but I just don't. I do consider it from time to time, no doubt. Your idea of washing the grains rather than doing what is similar to 3 mashes is indeed the argument I hear. It is not a bad idea at all.

 

[duboman]

Congrats on making the jump!

There are several ways to go AG, you can do BIAB which simplifies theprocess and reduces the amount of equipment you need

You can go traditional mash/sparge which appears to be your choice. If you get an HLT you ideally would like it to handle the total required volume your batch would require and also have a separate burner to adjust heat for mash and sparge but it's not totally necessary as a cooler can be used as an HLT as well, you just need a source to heat the water prior.

Many people use a cooler as a MLT and either fly or batch sparge, I batch sparge as I found my efficiency was the same as fly but requies less time. See http://www.dennybrew.com for more info on batch sparging

I would suggest nothing smaller than 10 gallon kettles for 5 gallon batches and if you go 10 gallon batches you'll want to start with at least 15 gallon kettles. The bigger you go the more interested you'll be in having pumps as lifting and moving those volumes is dangerous and difficult

Last, I would highly suggest you get Palmer's "how to brew" and read it if you don't have it already. It will help you understand all the nuances associated with AG brewing. You will also want a water report and understand some water chemistry based on those results. Water is more important with AG brewing than with extract.

I'll add, if you have not already taken control of yeast management and fermentation temperature control certainly make that investment as a priority as yeast makes the beer and this alone will greatly improve your final product.

EDIT: Hello beat me to some of this

 

[Wingnutt73]

Awesome!!!! Just awesome information. I'mm looking @ 2 10gallon coolers. I think im going to go the DIY route and save some cash for an extra keg. I think I will try the Fly Sparge method it sounds like a quicker route and heck why not. As far as water goes that is the nxt thing I will be getting into but for now I just buy bottled stuff.
As far as ferm temps go I have a basement that stays anywhere between 64-68F year round so I think I'm good there for the time being as well. But A ferm chamber is next in line after I get my AG setup. I plan on doing 5gal batches for now so haveing the 10gal I can do a 10gal batch if I choose. Thanks again guys keep it coming.

 

[Darwin18]

Good write up by Hello but I disagree very much with "needing a HLT". A couple of 5-gallon buckets to hold your runnings is more than sufficient.

 

[kombat]

2 problems:

1: A 10 gallon cooler is not big enough to do 10 gallon batches. You're forgetting about the volume of 15-25 lbs of wet grain. I use a 48 qt (12 gallon) cooler for my 5 gallon batches, and a 70 qt (17.5 gallon) Coleman Extreme cooler for my 10 gallon batches.

2: Fermenting beer can be up to 10 degrees warmer than the ambient temperature. So if your basement is sitting at 68° F, then your beer could actually get as warm as 78° F, and you'll end up with banana-flavoured nail polish remover.

Fear not, you don't have to take the plunge into an expensive fermentation chamber just yet. But you should definitely pick up a plastic laundry tub with the rope handles ($7 at Wal-Mart). Fill it with 5 gallons of water the day before you brew to give it time to settle to room temperature. Add a tablespoon of bleach to stave off mold. Put your fermenter in this water bath and cover it with a wet t-shirt. Monitor the temperature of the water bath - it will be very close to the temperature of the beer. If you notice it getting too warm (where "too warm" means 68° F or higher), then add some frozen water bottles (I use the bottles my apple juice comes in) to get that temperature back down. This will make the single biggest difference in the quality of your beer.

Also make sure you pitch enough yeast, and if you're using dry yeast, rehydrate it beforehand, carefully following the directions on the manufacturers' websites.

 

[kombat]

Good write up by Hello but I disagree very much with "needing a HLT". A couple of 5-gallon buckets to hold your runnings is more than sufficient.

I'd be apprehensive about storing several gallons of near-boiling, low-pH liquid in a plastic vessel.

 

[Darwin18]

I'd be apprehensive about storing several gallons of near-boiling, low-pH liquid in a plastic vessel.

I guess the competition medals and ribbons on my wall are apprehensive about it too.

 

[Darwin18]

OP - If you're looking for a basic write up with drawings then you can't go wrong looking over Denny Conn's write up on batch sparging:

http://hbd.org/cascade/dennybrew/

 

[kombat]

I guess the competition medals and ribbons on my wall are apprehensive about it too.

Oh I'm not concerned about the taste. I'm concerned about the chemicals that could leach out.

For the sake of a $7 aluminum pot from Wal-Mart, I'd rather just not take any chances.

 

[Hello]

Good write up by Hello but I disagree very much with "needing a HLT". A couple of 5-gallon buckets to hold your runnings is more than sufficient.

This is true. I agree that you can use any food safe vessel that is resistant to 170F heat to hold your runnings. I suppose in my book it was easier to run into the vessel I would boil in because it hopefully reduced moving the wort around a bunch and having to lift more than necessary. In truth, I don't know what it is but I get my hands on anything brew related and I am constantly spilling. Star san and my floor are buddies, wort, etc etc. It is never-ending. That is why I didn't really consider for myself that idea that you have.

Awesome!!!! Just awesome information. I'mm looking @ 2 10gallon coolers. I think im going to go the DIY route and save some cash for an extra keg. I think I will try the Fly Sparge method it sounds like a quicker route and heck why not. As far as water goes that is the nxt thing I will be getting into but for now I just buy bottled stuff.
As far as ferm temps go I have a basement that stays anywhere between 64-68F year round so I think I'm good there for the time being as well. But A ferm chamber is next in line after I get my AG setup. I plan on doing 5gal batches for now so haveing the 10gal I can do a 10gal batch if I choose. Thanks again guys keep it coming.

I could be wrong, but fly sparging takes longer, I think. Again, I always stress when I tell people anything that I do not do it. In fairness, with regards to fly sparging I only know what I have been told or read.

I also didn't even get into fermentation and such because you brew today. I figure when someone moves from partial mash and/extract that they're already moving along brewing beer they like and controlling their basic process. So I hope glossing over the whole fermentation temp control wasn't seen as less than important. I figured I shouldn't bore you more than I may have.

 

[MindenMan]

I used to fly sparge every batch I did. Last brew day I batch sparged, and my O.G. was the same as always. That alone saved me at least an hour.

 

[Wingnutt73]

I also didn't even get into fermentation and such because you brew today. I figure when someone moves from partial mash and/extract that they're already moving along brewing beer they like and controlling their basic process. So I hope glossing over the whole fermentation temp control wasn't seen as less than important. I figured I shouldn't bore you more than I may have.

I hear ya and you are correct. I didnt want this to turn into a Ferm temp thread. Anyways I guess I may be calling "Fly Sparging" the incorrect thing. I found a pretty decent sparging tool from homebrewstuff that fits a 10gal Igloo Cooler. Its ordered and I will be picking up the MLT and HLT coolers at Lowes tonight along with the pieces to convert them.

My last question is..... Mash Paddles? I see all the cool looking wood ones, but why use wood? Wouldn't SS be cleaner and safe not to spread unwanted badies?

 

[Darwin18]

Oh I'm not concerned about the taste. I'm concerned about the chemicals that could leach out.

For the sake of a $7 aluminum pot from Wal-Mart, I'd rather just not take any chances.

That's not an unfair point but I think the risk is way overblown. Everyone has their own tolerance for risk. Usually when I see people advocating a HLT they're suggesting that you need a 2nd kettle ($100+) which is crazy. A cheapo pot just to hold the runnings is more than sufficient.

 

[Wingnutt73]

So maybe I need to state what I already have. I have a small Kettle I think its 20 quarts I have a 44 quart Bayou kettle and a bayou burner. Was planing on doing the boil in the 44 kettle and Getting a 10gal MLT and HLT leaving room to grow.

 

[Hello]

So maybe I need to state what I already have. I have a small Kettle I think its 20 quarts I have a 44 quart Bayou kettle and a bayou burner. Was planing on doing the boil in the 44 kettle and Getting a 10gal MLT and HLT leaving room to grow.

I think you're good to go in terms of equipment.

Mash paddles...wood is strong and you do not have to worry about leaching nasties or getting nasties because the mash is hot, the wort is boiled...you don't use your mash paddle after you're done mashing…at least I do not. I use a SS spoon which is better for me because I leave it in the wort while chilling to stir the wort from time to time.

I think you're well on your way here.

That's not an unfair point but I think the risk is way overblown. Everyone has their own tolerance for risk. Usually when I see people advocating a HLT they're suggesting that you need a 2nd kettle ($100+) which is crazy. A cheapo pot just to hold the runnings is more than sufficient.

FWIW, I (as in the people you refer to) did not recommend a $100+ pot. Not only did I not do that, I stated that I use my economy polar ware pot that I bought when I first started. I assume because the intended audience of the statement has been brewing (you can tell by his previous posts) that he owned some sort of vessel that held liquid and would continue to do so after he moved to AG. I don't find my recommendation to be "crazy".

 

[fsr_racer]

Just chiming in so I can follow and not lose track of the thread. Good info all around.

 

[Wes440]

I was going to go the cooler route for my mash tun, but then found a great deal on Craigslist on a 10 gallon Bayou Classic brew kettle setup, like the one here: http://www.bayouclassiccooking.com/10stbrkeset.html

Except I got it for half the cost...

Anyways its my everything- mt, bk, etc.
I use two other 5 gallon stainless kettles for hlt's, and it's worked wonderfully.

I actually use this bad boy on my electric range! I boil full volume in the 10 gallon, let the temp go down to mash in (168) and then split half or more to the other kettle (hlt).

Mash in and turn off the burner, put on the lid and mash, my temp reduction is slow, going from ~158 down to 145 or so over 1 hour.

Then I sparge into the other free kettle, fly sparing with a large glass beer pitcher... Just what I do... until I have my volume. I stay at 75-80% efficiency this way. This kettle has a false bottom so no stuck sparges yet, and sometimes I mash as thin as 1.5 qts per gallon.

*Clean out the spent grain and take off the mesh tube attachment, remove false bottom, put on a side dip tube (only 2 parts easily found at home depot) and transfer wort back into the big 10 gallon for the boil. The rest is cake and the cleaning interval only takes 10-15 minutes as a full sanitation is not needed. I'm a fan of this system, and the stainless kettle will last a long time!

Here it is about to make beer: