Gluten Free Birthday Barleywine

[InfiniteThought]

it appears through experimentation with GF certified oats that I cannot tolerate them at all. None of this is buy choice...been a diagnosed celiac for 2 years and was undiagnosed for many years before that.

 

[Lcasanova]

Try bananas then. There is someone around the GF forum that uses them in all of his beers, I've yet to try it though.

 

[InfiniteThought]

what exactly do you do with the banana? I am guessing you just chop it up and throw it in the boil.

 

[DKershner]

it appears through experimentation with GF certified oats that I cannot tolerate them at all. None of this is buy choice...been a diagnosed celiac for 2 years and was undiagnosed for many years before that.

Let me guess...diagnosed with anemia. Just be glad you live on the west coast...or else you might be dead. I went through this with my mom in Portland about 15 years ago...

You must be really sensitive. Looks like no white labs yeast for you.

 

[DKershner]

what exactly do you do with the banana? I am guessing you just chop it up and throw it in the boil.

I think mash it up and throw it in the fermenter...one of us will have to find the link. I think it was Noontime who does it...

 

[Lcasanova]

Here it is:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/bottling-gf-today-165010/

 

[Revvy]

Here it is:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f164/bottling-gf-today-165010/

How cool is that?! I'm going to have to pay attention to these GF threads more closely there's some really fascinating things being done to push the limits of GF brewing, and brewing in general. I just popped into this thread because it's a B-Day Brew (since that's in my thought process these days) and stayed because DKershner is such a bloody brilliant guy to read his posts!

Since I like to experiment anyway, a lot of stuff people are doing out of necessity on this topic, gets my creative brewing juices flowing.

 

[InfiniteThought]

Thanks for the link to the banana explanation, that sounds perfect. I like a little fruit flavors and a faint banana will go nicely i think.
UDATED RECIPE

Minimash
6#millet
3#red rice
1/2# whole quinoa
mash 145-150 for 1 hour
sparge 165

4#dememera sugar
1# caramelized honey
2# honey
3# Amber Candi sugar
1#5oz rice malt syrup (the size the jar comes in)
1 banana

boil for 2 hours
2 oz Zeus 60 min
4 oz Mt. Hood 30 min
2 oz Cascade 10 min
2 oz Cascade flameout
2 oz Mt. Hood flameout

edit: plus yeast nutrient

 

[DKershner]

How cool is that?! I'm going to have to pay attention to these GF threads more closely there's some really fascinating things being done to push the limits of GF brewing, and brewing in general. I just popped into this thread because it's a B-Day Brew (since that's in my thought process these days) and stayed because DKershner is such a bloody brilliant guy to read his posts!

Since I like to experiment anyway, a lot of stuff people are doing out of necessity on this topic, gets my creative brewing juices flowing.

Thanks Revvy, but I really have to point credit towards all these folks in the forum. I'm here to help out my mother, sister, and girlfriend, but I get most of my ideas from people more daring than me that hang out here.

And yes, this is by far the most experimental subforum on HBT.

Cheers to the GF Brewers!

 

[InfiniteThought]

soo many new ideas, its great!

edit: in order to keep the OG where I had it, I have to change the 3# candi to 3# 10oz. what are the real differences between the different types of Candi?

 

[DKershner]

OK, I am going to try and look at how this beer SHOULD end up, and hopefully that will bring us somewhat closer to finding what you want. Below, I will try to list as much sugar and fermentability info that I can and we should be able to add it up to what this beer comes out as...

Minimash
6#millet 30 pts @ 75% fermentability 7.5 remain
3#red rice 15pts @ 80% fermentability 3 remain
1/2# whole quinoa 2.5pts @ 75% fermentability .625 remain
mash 145-150 for 1 hour
sparge 165

4#dememera sugar 176 PPG or 35.2pts @ 96% fermentability 1.4 remain
1# caramelized honey 35 PPG or 7pts @ uh...40% fermentability 4.2 remain
2# honey 70 PPG or 14pts @ 75% fermentability 3.5 remain
3# Amber Candi sugar 96 PPG, or 19.2pts @ 67% fermentability 6.4 remain
1#5oz rice malt syrup (the size the jar comes in) 47 PPG, or 9.4pts @ 75% fermentability 2.35 remain
1 banana Uh... 1pt @ 85% fermentability .15 remain

OK, so I come up with 133.3pts or 1.1333 for a SG.

FG should be... 29.1pts or 1.030.

If ANYONE AT ALL sees something wrong with my math, or one of my complete guesses, please let me know.

 

[InfiniteThought]

wow, thanks! how do you find all of that?

 

[DKershner]

wow, thanks! how do you find all of that?

Either stuff I already knew, or complete guesses.

The grains are a toss up, I gave them a low value for sugars, but if you get them to convert well it could be higher.
The carmelized honey depends a lot on how you roast it I would think.
I have no idea how much sugar a banana has.

The rest is info I could find from various sources.

EDIT: Let other people weigh in, in case I did something dumb. Otherwise, it seems like a good ending gravity. Check the "Remain" numbers for yourself and make sure the highest numbers are what you want the most taste of in your beer.

 

[InfiniteThought]

lets see, a normal large banana has approximately 15 g of carbohydrate, not sure how much of it is fermentable but that is so little I am not sure that it really matters. I usually get fairly poor conversions on the grain because they are not malted so low values would be right. I think ill add just a few oz more Candi to bump it back up to 1.140, just so I don't have to mess with my hop balance again, plus I like round numbers.

 

[DKershner]

With an estimated OG that high, there are fermentation issues to deal with. Revvy does a good job of going over them in his Barleywine thread, but I will cover the basics.

1. Lots of Oxygen - Aerate the crap out of your fermenter to begin with and again 12hrs into the ferment.

2. Craploads of yeast - Since you are using all dry yeast, pitch more than one packet and make sure to rehydrate. Mr Malty has a good calculator.

3. Staggered sugar additions - Wait to add those sugars until fermentation is rolling, I like doing them 3, 5, 7 days into fermentation, with 1/3 of each sugar added each of those days.

And...that's all I can think of for now.

 

[DKershner]

lets see, a normal large banana has approximately 15 g of carbohydrate, not sure how much of it is fermentable but that is so little I am not sure that it really matters. I usually get fairly poor conversions on the grain because they are not malted so low values would be right. I think ill add just a few oz more Candi to bump it back up to 1.140, just so I don't have to mess with my hop balance again, plus I like round numbers.

I wouldnt worry too much about round numbers, since I was just guessing on a lot of it anyway. With a big ole beer, you don't have too much to worry about with hop balance, just make it as complex as you like and hit it with at least 50IBUs.

I made an edit to the banana, it was too high before. OG and FG were adjusted too.

 

[fermentedhiker]

I believe bananas affect mouthfeel because they are high in glycerin and most of the aroma will be "cooked" of by an active fermentation in the primary. They are an old trick for adding body to fruit wines without having a large impact on flavor. I'd have to do some research to find the recommended amounts though, which would probably be different for a beer anyways.

 

[InfiniteThought]

I am going to use a yeast cake of Nottinghams that will be from a blackberry ale, and a small starter of T-58 and in secondary a starter of CL23 wine yeast no underpitching for me.

 

[Lcasanova]

Minimash
6#millet 30 pts @ 75% fermentability 7.5 remain
3#red rice 15pts @ 80% fermentability 3 remain
1/2# whole quinoa 2.5pts @ 75% fermentability .625 remain
mash 145-150 for 1 hour
sparge 165

FG should be... 29.1pts or 1.030.

If ANYONE AT ALL sees something wrong with my math, or one of my complete guesses, please let me know.

Aren't the grains unmalted? I would think he could save himself 30 minutes and just do a steep with these to get color and some grain characteristics? Did I miss something about amylase or anything else here?

 

[InfiniteThought]

yes I am going to mash with amylase. not sure if that was clear earlier, sorry.

 

[DKershner]

Aren't the grains unmalted? I would think he could save himself 30 minutes and just do a steep with these to get color and some grain characteristics? Did I miss something about amylase or anything else here?

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

 

[InfiniteThought]

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

completely right from what I understand, GF grains are extremely poor in enzymes and they just be added in some way. adding the amylase to the straight grain is a substitute for malting, just not a good one.

 

[Lcasanova]

The way I understand it, amylase is somewhat of a replacement for the malting process turning starches (complex carbohydrates/sugars) to sugars (simple sugars). Therefore some sugar would be created through the process, just not as much as if they were malted.

I could be wrong.

EDIT: I could have also read your post wrong...and you were asking if he was using amylase.

No, you read it right. I'm just curious to see how much gets converted...I have a 5 gallon pail of sorghum berries... I'm just thinking though, if not much sugar is going to be converted, wouldn't he be better off roasting and steeping them instead?

 

[InfiniteThought]

ah, but couldn't you do both? you could roast and mash with the enzyme, since we are relying on adding enzyme we don't have to worry about protecting it in the "grain"

 

[DKershner]

No, you read it right. I'm just curious to see how much gets converted...I have a 5 gallon pail of sorghum berries... I'm just thinking though, if not much sugar is going to be converted, wouldn't he be better off roasting and steeping them instead?

Starches are also known as unfermentable sugars (well, to most yeasts). Not using amylase would increase the number of starches and therefore increase the FG. Whether or not this is a good thing depends on whether or not you want a higher FG.

The more sugar that gets converted, the lower the FG and the higher the ABV. It also would make the beer taste drier.

Note that if you don't crack the grain and steep, the answer is different, as there would not really be many starches or sugars being released, just color and maybe a slight amount of flavor.

 

[InfiniteThought]

I am having a hard time cracking the millet, I need a better grain mill. mine is really, really old hand crank and I run the millet through it 3-4 times and only a small percentage is actually damaged. whatever, Ill figure it out.

 

[DKershner]

I am having a hard time cracking the millet, I need a better grain mill. mine is really, really old hand crank and I run the millet through it 3-4 times and only a small percentage is actually damaged. whatever, Ill figure it out.

Is it a Corona? I think Revvy has one of those if I am not mistaken. Maybe he can help...Revvy, where'd ya go?

I seem to remember something about flat washers...

 

[InfiniteThought]

this is some old thing, got it for 5 bucks at the antique store. I think that it might actually be a sausage maker but it does buckwheat perfectly. I am trying to find a finer screen to put over the end, then it will work.

edit: this thread is the top google result for "gluten free barleywine" go us!

 

[DKershner]

edit: this thread is the top google result for "gluten free barleywine" go us!

If you take google's suggestion on spelling, another page takes the #1 spot. Check out the shakparo ale, it sounds somewhat similar to my next experimental batch.
http://www.sprecherbrewery.com/beer.php?cat=5

 

[InfiniteThought]

that shakparo does sounds good. wouldn't mind some of that myself