Getting back in the saddle again...

[pfistsofstone]

Hi y'all, I would have just perused until I was able to cobble together a reasonable response to my question, but like many of you I am A) Very busy with life (family, work, etc.), B) I think a conversation can often be more helpful, because it focuses on specifics, and allows for clarifications to be made, and C) I think my question is an odd mixture of general/specific, and so I thought it would be best to just go ahead and post - thanks for your patience and understanding!

I began brewing about 6 years ago, and while I had some success, I failed badly when I transitioned to all-grain - mostly, I believe, because I tried to cut corners, and because I couldn't afford the equipment that I "needed." Here I am now, looking to get back into brewing, but wanting to do so deliberately. I would prefer to wait, and buy the essentials, rather than getting my feet wet again with some beginner's kit. So, my question is: can anyone list for me a decent list of what I should be looking to accumulate for my setup? Below are a few of my thoughts:

+2 carboys (glass or better bottles?)
+A keg setup (with fridge? I am preferring to keg, and not do bottles unless I'm talked out of it. Help with a good, basic setup would be appreciated))
+A good kettle (8 to 10 gallons?)
+A serious burner that can be used outside
+Cleaning agents (Iodophor?)
+Software
+SG testing setup
+Mash tun with false bottom
+Wort chiller (size?)
+Auto siphon
+Thermometer
+We already have an electronic grain mill that we use for flour
+We have a kitchen scale

What am I missing? Thanks so much!

 

[Pappers_]

Five thoughts:

1) a basic keg setup requires a cornelius keg, a CO2 tank and regulator, and a picnic tap - I bought mine at kegconnection.com but you can find them many places, bought as a package you save a little money and know that you're getting everything you need. I keep mine in a former wine fridge that I've repurposed.

2) you need both cleaning and sanitizing products, two different and necessary processes. After using an item, you clean it, with something like PBW, or you can use dish soap if you rinse it extremely well. Then you sanitize things that will touch your beer post-boil, immediately before you use them, with either Iodophor or Star San).

3) For your SG testing setup, all you need is a hydrometer and the tube it comes in

4) For the mash tun, you can use a cooler with either a false bottom or with a wire mesh braid.

5) Don't know about your grain mill, but for brewing, you crush the grain rather than grind it into a flour-like powder, if that makes sense.

Hope this helps - welcome back to the hobby!

 

[jlinz]

I would say that it would be good to actually get two kettles, so you have a hot liquor tank and get another burner for it. Not completely necessary, but it would save you time and a lot of unenecessary movement. Also, a hydrometer would be good (maybe a refractometer), and something to make yeast starters, a 2 litre flask, some dme, etc.

I know, I know. Always more stuff to buy

 

[pfistsofstone]

Thanks a lot, guys! I am pretty familiar with the basics (using the hydrometer and the tube it comes in, cleaning *and* sanitizing, etc.), but definitely need help in the all-grain world. jlinz, how does a 'hot liquor tank' work? Also, is the 2 litre flask for making a yeast starter?

Love the avatar, by the way. We're from WI, and my wife met him while working at an ice cream shop in Minocqua years ago!

 

[jlinz]

No problem! The HLT heats your mash water and sparge water. You could technically heat the mash water with your boil kettle, but it will be more of a pain in the arse to heat the water and dump it in the mash tun and then put it back in place for your mash runnings. Instead, you could set things up in such a way that you have your HLT higher than your mash tun and run water through your spigot for both mashing and sparging. You can then run your mash and sparge runnings straight into your boil kettle underneath your mash tun as well.

Yes, the 2L flask would be for yeast starters.

DA BEARS!!!

Died before his time.

 

[chickypad]

The hot liquor tank holds your sparge water - especially if fly sparging you need that second vessel, typically a cooler or kettle. If batch sparging it's easier to get around that using buckets or something. You might also consider BIAB, which would eliminate the need for mash tun and hot liquor tank if you do full volume mash. You may instead need a pulley or way to lift the bag, though.

Edit: I type slow

 

[Kee]

If you plan on full volume boils, 5 gallon batches, the 10 gallon pot would make boil overs (during the hot break) less likely.

If you are intent on using a keg system (there are pros and cons), check on where you will get refills. A 20 lb. CO2 bottle in some areas cost less to refill than a 5 lb. bottle.

 

[jlinz]

Oh, and use Better Bottles. The prospect of a shattering carboy is not something worth worrying about. I use Better Bottles and luv em. Especially the awkward 3 gallon ones. The fit in a mini fridge without taking up too much room.

 

[pfistsofstone]

Awesome. Thanks again - I *really* appreciate any and all insight!

 

[Pappers_]

If you are batch sparging and you already have a five gallon stockpot, you can heat your sparge water up in that on your stove, during the 60 minutes while your grain is mashing. That would be an alternative to a separate hot liquor vessel.

 

[Pappers_]

Thanks a lot, guys! I am pretty familiar with the basics . . . cleaning *and* sanitizing, etc. . . . .

Just wanted to double check, because in your list you had Iodophor as a cleaner, and it isn't, it is a sanitizer.

 

[Pappers_]

Oh, and use Better Bottles. The prospect of a shattering carboy is not something worth worrying about. I use Better Bottles and luv em. Especially the awkward 3 gallon ones. The fit in a mini fridge without taking up too much room.

Better Bottles are certainly safer, won't break. But they do scratch and then become difficult/impossible to sanitize. I use glass carboys with carboy carries (a strap system). Its not a right or wrong thing, but a preference.

 

[jlinz]

Better Bottles are certainly safer, won't break. But they do scratch and then become difficult/impossible to sanitize. I use glass carboys with carboy carries (a strap system). Its not a right or wrong thing, but a preference.

Good point. Not saying you are not right, but have you known this scratch leading to infection thing to happen? My sense is that this is possible but the risk is overblown. I haven't had it happen with plastic. Might just be lucky.

Technically it shouldn't happen if you use an oxygen based cleaner and soak them to clean them. Never a brush on the inside.

 

[pfistsofstone]

Yes, that was my bad listing Iodophor as a cleaner. I was just lumping everything under the general umbrella of cleaning, and not the more specific process of washing/cleaning your equipment prior to sanitizing and after brewing.

 

[beernutz]

An alternative to glass carboys, better bottles, or plastic buckets as a fermenter is a Speidel fermenter. I have used all three of the alternatives I listed previously but stopped using glass about ten years ago after several close call breakages (and I was using carry straps).

I still use better bottles for wine making but my plastic bucket fermenters have been permanently retired in favor of a Speidel as it is very easy to clean and filling kegs from it is a breeze. You can buy a lot of plastic buckets for the cost of one Speidel but I still think it was a good investment.

I have used a 3 vessel system for many years but recently have tried brew in a bag BIAB and the two times I've brewed that way have made me a believer. I actually still use 2 of my pots as I put water in one pot and treat and sometimes preboil it then pump it underletting to my BIAB kettle to mix with grain but that is entirely optional. One pot is all you need to BAIB.

 

[pfistsofstone]

I used a bag when I tried all-grain, and I agree that eliminating equipment in a way that improves simplicity and doesn't compromise efficiency is the way to go! Thanks, beernutz, this sort of creative thinking and optimization is what I'm looking for.

 

[Pappers_]

. . .have you known this scratch leading to infection thing to happen? My sense is that this is possible but the risk is overblown. I haven't had it happen with plastic. Might just be lucky.

Technically it shouldn't happen if you use an oxygen based cleaner and soak them to clean them. Never a brush on the inside.

I had a better bottle and didn't use a brush on it, but the inside of the neck got scratched up and after about a year of using it, I did have an unintended wild yeast/bacteria beer. Of course, I have no way knowing what was the cause. With plastic pieces generally, I swap them out every year just to be cautious.

I don't doubt that you've used BB's without an incident. Like many things in life, plastic vs. glass carboys are not a right and wrong issue, but rather a choice.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Water - what are you planning to use? If the municipal water, then you may well be able to grab a recent analysis from your water company's website, if it's a private supply then you may want to commission a water analysis (not expensive, or you can get test kits). Does it smell of chlorine, do kettles etc fur up quickly? If not then you don't need to worry so much, but chlorine and water hardness are definite problems. If you don't have chlorine or hardness problems you can brew good beer without worrying too much about it but you certainly need to pay close attention to water in order to brew great beer. So throw in calcium chloride and gypsum to the shopping list, depending on what your water looks like.

If you're being half-serious about all-grain, you need a way to measure pH, your aim is a mash of 5.3-5.4 as an optimum, pH>6 can cause problems but you need pretty alkaline water to get that high. pH strips are not too accurate but good enough for this purpose in most cases, there's a lot of reports of the $20 meters on Amazon dying pretty quickly (but one doesn't know how well they are looked after), the $100 meters last pretty well but probably are a bit of a luxury initially.

Controlling temperature during fermentation is one of the most important aspects of brewing - most people use an Inkbird hooked up to an old fridge with a small (<200W) heater inside of some kind.

Bottling has a lot of advantages - it's cheaper (don't know US prices, maybe $60 for a table capper, bottling wand and big bag of caps?) and a lot more flexible. You can give bottles to friends, you can throw a few in your bag when hiking, they keep for much longer and allow you to have a much greater choice of beer at any one time.

Think about BIAB - brew in a bag?

Heat-resistant silicone gloves are really handy for handling/squeezing hot BIAB bags - and can be sterilised so are handy for picking stuff out of the wort like when your bag falls in....

Something to stir your wort with - a big spoon or similar, preferably metal rather than plastic.

Nylon bags are useful for containing hops, and also for eg filtering trub when decanting to the FV.

Make sure your scales are a) capable of going up to at least 10lb and b) capable of reading fractions of an ounce, you may need two sets to weigh grain and hops.

A spare plastic bucket costs a few bucks but is really useful, either when you want to do two fermentations side by side or just as something to store your crap in.

More plastic boxes/buckets/ice-cream-tubs are useful for storing grains in - keeps them a bit fresher, reduces the risk of spillage from bags, and protects them from rodents if that's an issue.

Yeast wrangling stuff - nice to have, but not essential in the first instance, you can get by with just dry/liquid yeast from the store.

Check you have a suitable tap for connecting your chiller - both as far as making the connection, and having somewhere to dump the spare water. When I first got my chiller the "convenient" sink had a mixer tap that wouldn''t take my chiller connector, and the washing machine tap that did have a screw connector, was a foot further away than the length of my tubing! Not the hardest thing in the world to fix, but it was really boring until I did....

 

[pfistsofstone]

Northern Brewer, that is some great advice - thanks!

My water is municipal, but we use a Berkey filter, which does a great job removing chlorine, etc. (It only stores 4.5 gallons at a time, so I'd either have to refill right away, or use bottled for the rest). I am also a super micro coffee roaster, and so completely understand and appreciate the need for good water.

I also appreciate your thoughts about bottling. Even if it was somehow objectively the inferior option, the immediate affordability (and minimal equipment) is a big plus.

 

[pfistsofstone]

What about software?

 

[pfistsofstone]

And, any experience with the Catalyst?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What about software?

You pay (not huge money) for the "BMW option" of Beersmith, or you don't pay for the "Nissan option" of something like Brewtarget.

 

[jrgtr42]

+2 carboys (glass or better bottles?)
+A keg setup (with fridge? I am preferring to keg, and not do bottles unless I'm talked out of it. Help with a good, basic setup would be appreciated))
+A good kettle (8 to 10 gallons?)
+A serious burner that can be used outside
+Cleaning agents (Iodophor?)
+Software
+SG testing setup
+Mash tun with false bottom
+Wort chiller (size?)
+Auto siphon
+Thermometer
+We already have an electronic grain mill that we use for flour
+We have a kitchen scale

What am I missing? Thanks so much!

IMo, there are a few things that are needed, some things that are nice to have, and some things that are not really NEEDED, but you can make use of them.
As far as getting back into things, I'm presuming that you are starting from scratch? I would probably say to start with basics, brew a couple of extracts to get used to doing things again.
This advice, worth what you paid for it is presuming you're planning on 5-gallon batches, conventially mashed and sparged.
For a kettle: 8 gallons (32-quarts) is minimum Preferably 40 to have that headroom. If you want to try Brew In a Bag (BIAB) you probably want a bit bigger - maybe 48qt (12gal) - others will chime in on that.
You don't need to spend a fortune on a brew kettle, but more $$ will get more features.
Carboys / BBs are nice, but a bucket works just as well. For most beers, being in a fermenter for 4 weeks or less, you don't really gain anything using the carboy. If you want to bulk age - on wood, fruit, sour, etc - then a carboy is probably what you want to use.
All you really need for gravities is a hydrometer and probably a tube to use. I mostly just measure right in my fermenter or kettle once cooled. I rarely bother using the tube.
For a mash tun you can buy a specialized one prebuilt for $$, or modify a cooler. I did that with a 48-qt rectangular, replaced the spout with a better one, and built a manifold from a length of copper pipe and a handful of corners. Total cost maybe $75. You can do similar with the round Igloo water coolers, there are false bottoms sold to fit those everywhere.
If you want to go propane / NG burners, wait till after thanksgiving when the turkey fryers go on sale. Bonus is you usually get another kettle with it; I use that one for my HLT. LOok for as high a BTU rating as you can, mine is 55k btus, I got it for $40 at Home Depot.
I use Star San for sanitizing, I don't usually need deep cleaning stuff, but I have PBW (Powdered Brewery Wash) for when I do. I normally wash out with plain old dish soap and sponge, rinsing really well. Works 99.9% of the time.
Kegging is nice, but don't totally discount bottling.
I personally don't bother much with software - I use BrewToad (free) for some calculations, it works well enough for what I do.
Wort chillers are great to have - again, no 100% necessary, but close. Look up no-chill brewing for another option. if you get / build one, use as big tubing, as long tubing as you can handle. I have 1/2" copper pipe, 50 feet long, bent to a "rib cage" design. The last loop is usually out of the liquid when chilling. That's fine by me, and it'll get from boiling down to mid-60s in 20 minutes, in spring and fall, a bit higher / longer in dead of summer.
Definitly get a good thermometer - and if you have multiples, calibrate them, or at least keep note of how far off each is. Many people use the Thermopen, though it's kind of pricey, I use a cheaper one from the same manufacturer, it was like $15 or so and works perfectly for me, for brewing, smoking food (BBQ) and general cooking (I got 3 of them)
Hope some of this helps.

 

[pfistsofstone]

That's some more great info, jrgtr42 - thanks much!

 

[frozyn]

I will second Beernutz's suggestion of using Speidel fermenters. In addition to being easier to clean, I find it easier to get every lost drop of beer out of them due to the way they constructed their spigot outlet (I'm using their 12L version). While not a perfectly clear plastic, I can still get a sense of what's going on inside re: krausen and trub formation. I also like the way they constructed the cap, allowing you to tighten to your heart's desire.

 

[Baabaad00]

hydrometer/refractometer