Getting a Sour Taste In Porter

[bolus14]

I just brewed a Vanilla Porter based on this kit, I juts bought the ingredients from LHBS but otherwise same recipe. http://www.northernbrewer.com/dry-dock-urca-vanilla-porter-pro-series-all-grain-kit

I'm hoping I just need to give it some more time but I'm getting a noticeable sour taste, it was there after about 1.5 weeks of fermentation and still there on the first two bottles I've opened. For brewing I added the chocolate and black malt 30 min into the mash, all other grains were added add the beginning. Brew day was uneventful and wort tasted as I would expect going into the fermenter. This is probably around my 40th batch and cleaning/sanitizing process was the same as normal and to this day I haven't had any issues with infections, and there weren't any signs of a pellicle in the fermenter either so I don't suspect that being the case. I used WLP090 for the yeast, straight from the vial as I didn't have time to get a starter made and was pushing to have this ready for Christmas.

I brewed on 11/18, added vanilla beans on 12/1 and bottled on 12/11, I know that's a pretty tight schedule, poor planning on my part, but that's why I'm hoping I just need more time. At bottling time the beer tasted good, stronger vanilla flavor than most would look for, but that's what I was looking for, with good chocolate and some caramel with and a little roast in the background. I put a bottle in the fridge early in the morning Tuesday, 12/13, and opened last night, there was a slight hiss, no head, and only a touch of carbonation, more or less what I would expect given the bottling time and amount of time in the fridge, so none of that concerns me. But when tasting there's a sourness that I have never tasted before, almost like what Star-San taste like it you taste it on it's own after it's been diluted with water.

I know I diluted the Star-San correctly, so I'm just wondering if the sourness could be from the fermentation and just needs time to fade away, or is there something else that could be causing it. Like I've said I have never gotten this in around 40 batches and have brewed Pale Ale's, Saisons, Ambers, Belgian Darks, Stouts, Porters, etc, even made this recipe before and didn't get this taste then, but looking back I left out a couple grains and used different yeast, so not exactly the same recipe.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Sour = Infection. You can double check with a ph reading if you're uncertain if the flavor you're tasting actually is sour but sourness is pretty distinctive.

 

[bolus14]

Thanks for the reply, but to say all sour=infection is very misleading.

I know many yeasts can produce acetaldehyde during fermentation and given time to cleanup this will go away. This may very well be what it is, but I don't know if the taste is green apple like or not. Kind of hard with background of the porter.

I kept temps below 70, 64-66 for the first 4 days then raised to 68 until it was bottled.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Acetaldehyde is not really associated with a sour beer. Does it taste like tart apples? S-05 isn't as big of a producer as many lager strains for Acetaldehyde.

If it actually tastes sour, from either lactic acid or acetic acid, and not just slightly tart appley, then yes it is an infection. Again, test the ph if you're uncertain of what you're tasting. If it's below 4 then there's undoubtedly an infection from either a LAB like lacto bacillus, or pediococcus, or acetic acid from oxygen exposure with brett, "wild yeast" or acetobacter.

 

[flars]

I've tasted my Star San solution also. I was just wondering if the do not fear the foam mantra was really true. To me it did not taste sour. It just tasted like nothing.

Are you using municipal water for mixing your Star San solution? Chlorine could give you an off taste

The sour taste in your porter could just be a very green beer. Taste another one after a few more weeks of warm conditioning.

 

[bolus14]

I use city water that goes through our water softener for mixing with Star San.

At this point I'm going to hold out and just see how time handles it. Hopefully it is just green beer, sour might be the wrong way to describe the taste. Maybe just a sharp bite, some might equate it to being similar the the "twang" some Belgians beers have.

So, let's assume it's not infected, any thoughts on how long the green flavor take to go away after being bottles vs. letting it sit in the fermenter to age out? Like I said in roughly 40 beers I have never had something like this, but I have almost never opened the fermenter before 2 weeks and have almost always went at least 4-5 before bottling. This recipe also has roughly 20% dark or crystal malts and another 10% for the Aromatic and Flaked Barley, just thinking with almost 1/3 of the grain being non base malts if that contributes needing more time for it to cleanup?

 

[flars]

I think your off taste problems with the Star San solution will go away if you use distilled water for the solution.

Are you brewing with your tap water? The tap water will contain chlorine and/or chloramines. The water softener will not remove these chemicals. The softener will also increase the amount of sodium in your water.

 

[bolus14]

I do use rap water with half a tablet of k-meta. I get this water from a rap that doesn't go through the softener.

 

[flars]

I'm familiar with k-meta as an antioxidant and preservative in wine making. Does it also remove chlorine or chloramine from brewing water.

The K-meta could be the source of your sour taste from the sulfites.

 

[bolus14]

Yes, here's a pretty thorough write up https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=361073

 

[billl]

You bottled on 12/11 and put it in the fridge 12/13? I think thats your problem. All yeast produce acetaldehyde in some quantity and most reabsorb it and break it down near the end of their cycle. It is typically described as sour apple, but I imagine sour apple plus stronger roast and vanilla flavors might just come out as oddly twangy.

 

[bolus14]

Yes, yes I know not enough time in the bottle, and not enough time in the fridge. I have been able to usually bottle and then after 2 or 3 days put one in the fridge and at least have some carbonation just to see how it is taste wise cold and a little carbonated, call it a lack of patience issue.

Anyways, last night I tried the bottle I put in the fridge the day before, still only a little carbonation as to be expected, but the off taste was barely noticeable now, so I think it's just acetaldehyde that needs to be cleaned up since I kind of rushed the fermentation, adding vanilla beans, and bottling. And as @billl said I think the typical sour apple taste combined with dark malt flavors and vanilla is just making it seem like something other than sour apple.

 

[mux11]

Funny- I just pulled the first glass of a Grants Perfect Porter from a keg that is now cold conditioning in my garage and it has a sour flavor. 4 weeks primary / 4 weeks secondary / kegged for a few more weeks, so I can't imagine it is a 'green' beer flavor. Im doing research to find our what it could be.

 

[bolus14]

I'm pretty convinced mine was caused by acetobacter. I never got any gushers and was able to drink mine, but if the sour/vinegar like taste was much stronger I would have dumped them.

 

[mux11]

should have mentioned the flavor is more of a citric acid, like the sour in candy. not getting vinegar or the yogurt.
I just tried the crops of three batch that I did at the same time..... and it's sour too with some other flavor I can't put my finger on.. chocking things up to something I did that day with my process.