Garrett Crowell

[drgarage1]

I'm pretty opposed to making a quick berliner with sour mashing/kettle souring etc.

Can you explain your opposition? I get being opposed to the sour mash version (hello, butyric acid!), but what's wrong with kettle souring, particularly if you're actually pitching there rather than collecting bugs from the air?

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Can you explain your opposition? I get being opposed to the sour mash version (hello, butyric acid!), but what's wrong with kettle souring, particularly if you're actually pitching there rather than collecting bugs from the air?

There isn't anything wrong with kettle souring. There are some breweries that do it really well. I simply prefer to have all components of fermentation present from the beginning to the end. Kettle souring eliminates the potential evolution of lactic acid bacteria and it's interaction with other yeast/bacteria during fermentation.

 

[drgarage1]

There isn't anything wrong with kettle souring. There are some breweries that do it really well. I simply prefer to have all components of fermentation present from the beginning to the end. Kettle souring eliminates the potential evolution of lactic acid bacteria and it's interaction with other yeast/bacteria during fermentation.

Makes sense -- I kettle soured but didn't re-boil/sanitize afterward, then pitched Beatification dregs after racking with original lacto cultures. After a week, I used a pitch of my house brett strain to clean things up. Worked marvelously.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Based on the culture at jester king, are you still a homebrewer who does extremely large batches? That's too open of a question. Do you still have the freedom to try out different flavor combinations and techniques when inspiration hits (which is the epitome of homebrewing)?

I have more creative freedom now than I did as a homebrewer!

 

[cradke]

You made a couple changes to the second batch of Nocturn Chrysalis (which I thought turned out fantastic), do you plan on continuing to experiment with some of your other fruited sours (Atrial, MvB ect) or are those recipes pretty set in stone for future releases? Do you have any other fruit you haven't tried that you are planning on experimenting with?

...Also, any word on when B4 Atrial will be ready? Cheers!

 

[ElkSherpa1]

You made a couple changes to the second batch of Nocturn Chrysalis (which I thought turned out fantastic), do you plan on continuing to experiment with some of your other fruited sours (Atrial, MvB ect) or are those recipes pretty set in stone for future releases? Do you have any other fruit you haven't tried that you are planning on experimenting with?

...Also, any word on when B4 Atrial will be ready? Cheers!

There will always be slight changes and variations from batch to batch with our beers. However, they may not always be as significant as they were with batch 2 Nocturn Chrysalis. With individual barrels presenting varying characteristics, the base blends will probably see the most ebb and flow.

There are lots of fruits we'd like to experiment with, and some we have already! Most notably cantaloupe, figs, and other varietals of wine grapes are at the top of the list.

Batch 4 Atrial Rubicite is in bottles, and carbonated/conditioned. We usually give beers like this a month or two to stabilize in the bottle and develop additional character. So, I'd say it will be ready sooner than later...but that's up to the beer.

 

[DJPhresh]

ElkSherpa - Hey Garrett, I'm curious if you ever plan on finding out whats exactly in the "house culture". Have you guys looked at it under a microscope & try to isolate colonies? The comments before had me thinking about how your house culture could be continuely evolving/mutating. You make awesome beer. Keep it up! Hopefully soon I'll be down that way to visit. Cheers.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

ElkSherpa - Hey Garrett, I'm curious if you ever plan on finding out whats exactly in the "house culture". Have you guys looked at it under a microscope & try to isolate colonies? The comments before had me thinking about how your house culture could be continuely evolving/mutating. You make awesome beer. Keep it up! Hopefully soon I'll be down that way to visit. Cheers.

Yes! We sent an early sample of the house culture to a friend at UC davis to have analyzed. We were told there were too many things in there and not enough time to fully dissect. It'd be interesting to know exactly what it is that is fermenting our beer, but really as long as it tastes and smells good, that's enough satisfaction for me. I look at the house culture under the microscope pretty often and there seems to exist a pretty intricate array of microbes. I'm afraid I don't have the expertise to identify them solely based on appearance, but I'm positive there are several strains of saccharomyces (because I put them in there), and brettanomyces I recognize from other isolates I've seen under the microscope. Our house culture is most definitely evolving/mutating. We see that most clearly in sensory profiles of our beer.

 

[shelf_turd_ferguson]

Yes! We sent an early sample of the house culture to a friend at UC davis to have analyzed.
Our house culture is most definitely evolving/mutating. We see that most clearly in sensory profiles of our beer.

Very cool.

If the house culture is mutating, could it potentially run its course and have to be replaced? I've read a little on brewing, and I think How to Brew warned that trying to use the same yeast culture [sic?] more than 6-8 times would lead to mutated yeast (or something like that). Any elaboration on this is appreciated.
jamescain HopAG I know you two know about this.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Very cool.

If the house culture is mutating, could it potentially run its course and have to be replaced? I've read a little on brewing, and I think How to Brew warned that trying to use the same yeast culture [sic?] more than 6-8 times would lead to mutated yeast (or something like that). Any elaboration on this is appreciated.
jamescain HopAG I know you two know about this.

If it were a single strain of saccharomyces, sold by a lab, then it would change over time and "adapt" to a specific brewery environment. Well, all yeast will change and mutate over time. I'm a bit torn on what to believe yeast labs are telling us about how many times we can viably use yeast. They are in the business of selling yeast, so it makes sense that it would be suggested yeast be discarded after X generations and a new pitch be purchased. Please bear in mind that my opinions reflect our use of a multistrain culture. I realize that drift in yeast character is probably undesirable if you're brewing a Czech lager (which is what I like to drink as much as saison). Yvan from De La Senne mentioned to us recently that their strain of saccharomyces has been through 35+ generations with the only noticeable difference being a bit of cloudiness/flocculation.

With our house culture, consisting of many different yeasts and bacteria, there are different "tricks" we can do to keep bacteria from taking over the fermentation profile since bacteria tends to reproduce faster than yeast...if the yeast is sluggish. We pitch our yeast from cone to cone, batch to batch etc. If we don't have yeast available in the bottom of a tank, we will step up the culture from our yeast brink. Every so often, if we see the culture presenting more acidity than we want in a beer, we can cycle a pitch through a hoppy beer, like Wytchmaker, or El Cedro. Hoppier beers will inhibit lactobacillus growth. Also, I will save vials of yeast from fermentations that present really great/desirable character and re-introduce them to the yeast brink, and often to 3bbl and 6bbl starters that will be pitched into 30bbl or 60bbl batches.

 

[Stiltzkin1]

If it were a single strain of saccharomyces, sold by a lab, then it would change over time and "adapt" to a specific brewery environment. Well, all yeast will change and mutate over time. I'm a bit torn on what to believe yeast labs are telling us about how many times we can viably use yeast. They are in the business of selling yeast, so it makes sense that it would be suggested yeast be discarded after X generations and a new pitch be purchased. Please bear in mind that my opinions reflect our use of a multistrain culture. I realize that drift in yeast character is probably undesirable if you're brewing a Czech lager (which is what I like to drink as much as saison). Yvan from De La Senne mentioned to us recently that their strain of saccharomyces has been through 35+ generations with the only noticeable difference being a bit of cloudiness/flocculation.

With our house culture, consisting of many different yeasts and bacteria, there are different "tricks" we can do to keep bacteria from taking over the fermentation profile since bacteria tends to reproduce faster than yeast...if the yeast is sluggish. We pitch our yeast from cone to cone, batch to batch etc. If we don't have yeast available in the bottom of a tank, we will step up the culture from our yeast brink. Every so often, if we see the culture presenting more acidity than we want in a beer, we can cycle a pitch through a hoppy beer, like Wytchmaker, or El Cedro. Hoppier beers will inhibit lactobacillus growth. Also, I will save vials of yeast from fermentations that present really great/desirable character and re-introduce them to the yeast brink, and often to 3bbl and 6bbl starters that will be pitched into 30bbl or 60bbl batches.

This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing.

1) How do you propagate a mixed culture? Won't the bacteria grow faster during the propagation?

2) And if you have a mix of Sacc and Brett yeast in there won't the proportion change quite a bit over time?

3) Is it only yeast in the yeast brink or is that a mix of yeast and bacteria?

Cheers

 

[doobiegoobie]

First off, LOVE what you all do. You make some of my favorite sours, especially the fruit ones. I'm in Lubbock so ~6 hrs away, but going to the brewery definitely makes it worth the trip.

I'd love to hear more about your punch down process. Just had your Nocturn and it was insanely jammy (as is Atrial), and I would love to be able to get that character. Do you worry about introducing oxygen? Do you think it'd be ideal to fill any head space with CO2 after punching down, or is there enough active fermentation and/or CO2 released during the process so I shouldn't worry about it? Can you mitigate any acetobacter growth by filling the head space with CO2, or will it not matter if the top fruit goes dry, or is the flavor contribution of the punch down worth it regardless? In general, I'm worried about introducing oxygen by opening up the fermentor 2-3x/day, so any info you got on that would be fantastic. Also, how much fruit do you use per barrel/gallon/whatever unit is easiest? What fruits are your favorite to use?

Sorry for all the questions but as the great Dr. Seuss said "The more that you learn, the more places you'll go." Cheers!

 

[tx_beer_man]

...El Cedro.

MMmmmm CEDAR hoppy goodness! Anytime soon El Cedro is returning?

 

[ElkSherpa1]

This is really interesting! Thanks for sharing.

1) How do you propagate a mixed culture? Won't the bacteria grow faster during the propagation?

2) And if you have a mix of Sacc and Brett yeast in there won't the proportion change quite a bit over time?

3) Is it only yeast in the yeast brink or is that a mix of yeast and bacteria?

Cheers

1.) We feed the brink (which contains both yeast and bacteria) with wort from brew-days. If the brink needs to be fed, and we don't have wort on hand/aren't brewing, I'll just make a 10 gallon batch of starter wort with DME with a gravity around 1.035. Sometimes the bacteria grows faster than the sacch/brett. In that case, I'll add some hopped wort to the brink and it seems to tone it down.

For propagations from the mixed culture brink requiring a production scale pitch here are the usual steps:
a.) Shake the brink up and pull a sample from the bottom valve.
b.) Perform cell count (counting both yeast and bacteria) under microscope with hemocytometer.
c.) Apply cell count to size of starter (3bbl starter for 30bbl batch, 6bbl starter for 60bbl batch).
d.) Pitch appropriate quantity of slurry from the brink into the starter tank and let ferment/grow for ~12-24hrs.
e.) Transfer starter into fermentation tank containing the remainder of the wort from the brew day.

2.) The proportion of everything in the mix is always changing! That being said, we do see similarities or "house character" from the mixed culture from batch to batch. They aren't identical, and we don't anticipate they ever will be.

3.) The brink contains many different kinds of yeast and bacteria.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

First off, LOVE what you all do. You make some of my favorite sours, especially the fruit ones. I'm in Lubbock so ~6 hrs away, but going to the brewery definitely makes it worth the trip.

I'd love to hear more about your punch down process. Just had your Nocturn and it was insanely jammy (as is Atrial), and I would love to be able to get that character. Do you worry about introducing oxygen? Do you think it'd be ideal to fill any head space with CO2 after punching down, or is there enough active fermentation and/or CO2 released during the process so I shouldn't worry about it? Can you mitigate any acetobacter growth by filling the head space with CO2, or will it not matter if the top fruit goes dry, or is the flavor contribution of the punch down worth it regardless? In general, I'm worried about introducing oxygen by opening up the fermentor 2-3x/day, so any info you got on that would be fantastic. Also, how much fruit do you use per barrel/gallon/whatever unit is easiest? What fruits are your favorite to use?

Sorry for all the questions but as the great Dr. Seuss said "The more that you learn, the more places you'll go." Cheers!

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement!

We performed punch-downs on batch 1 of Nocturn Chrysalis. Batch 2 of Nocturn Chrysalis was re-fermented with blackberries in a stainless steel tank and didn't receive the punch down method. We added the pureed berries to the tank, followed by a blend of mature, barrel aged sour beer. We recirculated the beer+berries, known in the wine world as a "pump-over".

Concerning oxygen exposure and punch-downs, it is all about timing. After you add the fruit, you want to wait until you see signs of active fermentation prior punching down the fruit. If you have co2 in solution and continual off-gassing, you run less risk of over-oxygenation. If you're concerned about acetic acid production (which we certainly are), it can't hurt to blanket with co2. Temperature also helps to prevent rampant acetobacter growth. We keep our barrel room below 65F. We do occasionally have barrels that go acetic, but not too often.

Our average ratio of fruit to beer is around 2lbs per gallon. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I'm most fond of wine grapes. I had an excellent sparkling rose over the weekend and it really got my gears turning for beer ideas!

 

[ElkSherpa1]

MMmmmm CEDAR hoppy goodness! Anytime soon El Cedro is returning?

Sooner than later!

 

[Rau711]

ElkSherpa Were you talking about the Fruited sours being at FWIBF?

 

[Stiltzkin1]

1.) We feed the brink (which contains both yeast and bacteria) with wort from brew-days. If the brink needs to be fed, and we don't have wort on hand/aren't brewing, I'll just make a 10 gallon batch of starter wort with DME with a gravity around 1.035. Sometimes the bacteria grows faster than the sacch/brett. In that case, I'll add some hopped wort to the brink and it seems to tone it down.

For propagations from the mixed culture brink requiring a production scale pitch here are the usual steps:
a.) Shake the brink up and pull a sample from the bottom valve.
b.) Perform cell count (counting both yeast and bacteria) under microscope with hemocytometer.
c.) Apply cell count to size of starter (3bbl starter for 30bbl batch, 6bbl starter for 60bbl batch).
d.) Pitch appropriate quantity of slurry from the brink into the starter tank and let ferment/grow for ~12-24hrs.
e.) Transfer starter into fermentation tank containing the remainder of the wort from the brew day.

2.) The proportion of everything in the mix is always changing! That being said, we do see similarities or "house character" from the mixed culture from batch to batch. They aren't identical, and we don't anticipate they ever will be.

3.) The brink contains many different kinds of yeast and bacteria.

Thank you very much for that detailed explanation.

 

[stupac2]

ElkSherpa Were you talking about the Fruited sours being at FWIBF?

ElkSherpa the world must know!

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

I'm most fond of wine grapes. I had an excellent sparkling rose over the weekend and it really got my gears turning for beer ideas!

Oh ****. You get it.

Please tell me it was Larmandier Bernier Rose

 

[ElkSherpa1]

ElkSherpa Were you talking about the Fruited sours being at FWIBF?

I don't remember what we're bringing to Firestone Walker! I guess I'll find out this weekend. If you guys are there, come chat with us!

 

[Rau711]

I don't remember what we're bringing to Firestone Walker! I guess I'll find out this weekend. If you guys are there, come chat with us!

I will be there an hour before the commoners. I will stop by.

 

[doobiegoobie]

Thanks for the kind words and encouragement!

We performed punch-downs on batch 1 of Nocturn Chrysalis. Batch 2 of Nocturn Chrysalis was re-fermented with blackberries in a stainless steel tank and didn't receive the punch down method. We added the pureed berries to the tank, followed by a blend of mature, barrel aged sour beer. We recirculated the beer+berries, known in the wine world as a "pump-over".

Concerning oxygen exposure and punch-downs, it is all about timing. After you add the fruit, you want to wait until you see signs of active fermentation prior punching down the fruit. If you have co2 in solution and continual off-gassing, you run less risk of over-oxygenation. If you're concerned about acetic acid production (which we certainly are), it can't hurt to blanket with co2. Temperature also helps to prevent rampant acetobacter growth. We keep our barrel room below 65F. We do occasionally have barrels that go acetic, but not too often.

Our average ratio of fruit to beer is around 2lbs per gallon. Sometimes a little more, sometimes a little less. I'm most fond of wine grapes. I had an excellent sparkling rose over the weekend and it really got my gears turning for beer ideas!

You're dropping quite a lot of knowledge. Might want to pick it up! (ba da ching......eh? ehhhh?.........i'll see myself out)

More fruit questions though:

• Mario Batali suggests using slightly overripe fruit to get the most intense fruit flavor in a gelato or something like that. Some also think that dry fruits add a lot of intense flavors (http://www.azcentral.com/style/hfe/...323dried-fruit-gives-food-intense-flavor.html). Do you those could apply to fruit flavor in sours too?
• Basically, what are the things you think about when selecting fruits in general?
• Are there any fruits you won't/don't like to use? Why?
• Where do you look to to find out more info about adding fruits? Seems like you steal a lot of techniques from the wine industry, anywhere else?

**** I could go on all day but will stop...for now. Thanks!

 

[doobiegoobie]

Also, word on the street is that you were hanging out at SARA. What's up with that? Please tell me a JK/SARA collab!

 

[TripleSixHoppia]

Some also think that dry fruits add a lot of intense flavors

Check it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarone

And try some.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

You're dropping quite a lot of knowledge. Might want to pick it up! (ba da ching......eh? ehhhh?.........i'll see myself out)

More fruit questions though:

• Mario Batali suggests using slightly overripe fruit to get the most intense fruit flavor in a gelato or something like that. Some also think that dry fruits add a lot of intense flavors (http://www.azcentral.com/style/hfe/...323dried-fruit-gives-food-intense-flavor.html). Do you those could apply to fruit flavor in sours too?
• Basically, what are the things you think about when selecting fruits in general?
• Are there any fruits you won't/don't like to use? Why?
• Where do you look to to find out more info about adding fruits? Seems like you steal a lot of techniques from the wine industry, anywhere else?

**** I could go on all day but will stop...for now. Thanks!

Sorry for the late reply!

Overripe fruit will get more fruit flavor and extraction than under-ripe fruit. Beyond that the character is specific to the fruit itself. We've tried some small scale experiments with dried fruit, and it ends up "stewy" tasting. We prefer fresh or frozen.

When selecting fruit, we generally pick things that we like to eat! We normally don't pick things based on sugar or acid content. When the fruit arrives, we taste it and determine/adjust which barrel stock to blend with it. Raspberries are pretty acidic, so we'll blend less acidic sour beer.

Fresh blueberries tend to get acetic, so we shy away from those.

Adrienne, the head of our barrel room and fruit fermentations is a wealth of knowledge concerning fruit and beer. Most of our techniques and info come from her brain and experience in the wine making world. We've gathered a lot of info from other breweries. Everything else, we figure out as we go.

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Also, word on the street is that you were hanging out at SARA. What's up with that? Please tell me a JK/SARA collab!

We were just hanging out, drinking beer, talking shop. Their brewery is awesome, and a testament to ingenuity. Also, they're about the kindest people you could ever meet.

 

[doobiegoobie]

Fantastic information! You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

And sorry but I got two more questions.

• Is your mane as luscious as on the logo for the new Biere de Miel?
• On a scale of 1-10, how badly do you want to ride a giant bee?

Cheers!

 

[ElkSherpa1]

Fantastic information! You, sir, are a gentleman and a scholar.

And sorry but I got two more questions.

• Is your mane as luscious as on the logo for the new Biere de Miel?
• On a scale of 1-10, how badly do you want to ride a giant bee?

Cheers!

My mane is in fact as luscious as was drawn on the Biere de Miel label...but it's soon to be trimmed!

On a scale of 1-10, I'd say 5 because I have already ridden a giant bee and I want to ride one again.

 

[doobiegoobie]

Sorry to be that guy again, but what kind of peaches did you pick for the recent batch? I think I'm gonna head down to the brewery and will be heading through peach country so would love to pick some up. Thanks!