(FWH) First Wart Hopping a partial mash as the sole bittering hops?!

[gigapunk]

I wanted to try FWH with a partial mash robust porter recipe that I'm slowly tweaking.

I brew in a bag with a pound of 2-row and my other malts, and then transfer the bag into a gallon+ of water at 170 and let them steep for 30-45 minutes as my sparge. I get crazy efficiency with this method. My Barley Wine that's in secondary hit 91% efficiency! I then normally trash the grains, add the sparge water to the mash wort, start boiling it all and add my bittering hops when it all starts to boil. And generally boil for 60 minutes.

I know that FWH is normally considered an all grain technique but my boil is usually right around 3 gallons and I generally use at least two pounds of grain. I was thinking of throwing my bittering hops into my sparge water with (but seperated in a bag from) my grains. Doing my normal 30-45 minutes at 170 F, and then keeping those hops in for a 60 minute boil. For this robust porter I also plan on an additional 3oz of hops going in @ 10, 5, and 2 minutes for finishing. And the bittering hops are 1oz of 12%AA Nugget and 0.5 oz. of 8.2%AA Cluster. My predicted OG is 1.054.

Beersmith calculates this out to be 51 IBUs, and Beersmith is set to add 10% to the IBUs when calculated with a FWH. But I think that in the NORMAL FWH technique that the hops are removed from the sparge with the grains, and are not boiled. Please correct me if I'm wrong. In my previous version of the beer I had the same OG, but 62 IBUs with a normal 60 minute boil, and the beer was a little more bitter than I wanted.

Would this procedure even be considered a first wort hop? Do you guys think that the steeping/sparging will have a higher PERCEIVED bitterness than if the same amount of hops had just been added after the boil started and boiled in the standard fashion for 60 minutes? Should I remove my bittering/FWH hops with the grains after the sparge or is it fine to leave them in?

Thanx a million guys!

 

[cactusgarrett]

In "normal" FWH'ing, hops are actually added to the the kettle as the first runoff is collected. Therefore, the hops DO get boiled, and that's why programs, such as Beersmith, consider this an addition boiled the longest, and thus, more IBU. However, as you touched on (but in reverse), the bitterness perceived from the first wort hops carries less of the typical punch as a regular bittering addition.

in order to mimic an all-grain FWH with partial mash, I would go through all the specialty grain steeping & sparging steps, then add first wort hops to the kettle after you've removed the grains and when you first add heat to bring to a boil.

 

[gigapunk]

Thanks for the clarification cactusgarrett. If I'm trying to get a sense of the bitterness that I'll end up tasting from the IBUs that Beersmith calculates, should I change the +10% that it adds for a FWH calculation to -10%? Or do you think that the extra time really does end up creating a perceived taste that is congruent with +10% IBUs?

 

[dcp27]

I think it depends which way u are taking IBUs. To me it seems like its +10% to IBUs for balance (BUGU), but -10% for harshness.

Also, why are you mashing so high? You may not want to change your methods if you're getting 91% efficiency, but your attentuation must be junk.

 

[Hermit]

I do BIAB with sparge also. I put my hops in my initial wort and start to bring the temp up for boil as I 'sparge' my grain. Nowhere near that long though. More like 10/15 minutes. You are deactivating enzymes and rinsing the remaining sugars.

 

[gigapunk]

I think it depends which way u are taking IBUs. To me it seems like its +10% to IBUs for balance (BUGU), but -10% for harshness.

Also, why are you mashing so high? You may not want to change your methods if you're getting 91% efficiency, but your attentuation must be junk.

I like the way you distinguish between the BUGU balance and the harness, that's the first time the FWH difference has made sense to me.

I mash at 152 generally but sparge at 170. Is that high?

How long do the other BIAB'ers sparge for?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Technically the +10% is probably right, but that's how instrumentation (an HPLC for example) perceives measured IBUs, because those hops are literally being boiled for that long. However, for actual human perception, you're better off considering FWhops similar to a 20min boil addition with regards to the taste of bitterness (fuller & rounder).

 

[dcp27]

I like the way you distinguish between the BUGU balance and the harness, that's the first time the FWH difference has made sense to me.

I mash at 152 generally but sparge at 170. Is that high?

How long do the other BIAB'ers sparge for?

nevermind, i misread that, thought 170F was the mash temp. id be a little weary keeping grains that high for that long though anyway. i do BIAB too and tend to batch sparge like 15-30mins around 160F, but thats across two sparges.

 

[Bob]

I do this all the time. Has to do with how I partial-mash.

My system is too small for even five-gallon mashing. I can mash maybe six pounds tops. So I either brew back-to-back (if I'm ambitious) 2.5 to 3-gallon batches, or I brew a 5-gallon batch partial-mash.

Either way, I make as much of my grist from grain and mash that. I have my system set to run off 4 gallons to my kettle which, with boiloff and other losses, nets me 3 gallons of wort. I can leave it at that brew length and hop accordingly, or I can boil the partial-mash wort with hops for 5 gallons and add DME to make my target 5-gallon OG at flameout.

Make sense?

Bob

 

[gigapunk]

I do this all the time. Has to do with how I partial-mash.

My system is too small for even five-gallon mashing. I can mash maybe six pounds tops. So I either brew back-to-back (if I'm ambitious) 2.5 to 3-gallon batches, or I brew a 5-gallon batch partial-mash.

Either way, I make as much of my grist from grain and mash that. I have my system set to run off 4 gallons to my kettle which, with boiloff and other losses, nets me 3 gallons of wort. I can leave it at that brew length and hop accordingly, or I can boil the partial-mash wort with hops for 5 gallons and add DME to make my target 5-gallon OG at flameout.

Make sense?

Bob

Makes perfect sense, I use your latter method, almost exclusively.