Fusel alcohols Will they settle out over time?

[ChaosStout]

Ok Bear with me as I seem to have lost my notes on this mead. Anyways its an Orange blossom honey mead I started in May. If I remeber correctly its about 13-14%ABV Anyways it fermented too warm I think and is Quite "Hot" Its been sitting in the carboy for some months backsweetened and fined. It taste great nice and sweet other then the hot bite. So my question is will the Fusel settle out with more aging? Thanks

 

[fatbloke]

Ok Bear with me as I seem to have lost my notes on this mead. Anyways its an Orange blossom honey mead I started in May. If I remeber correctly its about 13-14%ABV Anyways it fermented too warm I think and is Quite "Hot" Its been sitting in the carboy for some months backsweetened and fined. It taste great nice and sweet other then the hot bite. So my question is will the Fusel settle out with more aging? Thanks

So, it's been pretty much finished i.e. cleared and back sweetened. Then you're at the "bulk storage" stage, which is fine.

Some yeasts are known for producing fusels if fermented too warm (D47 being a candidate here).

Well, it depends on whether the "hot" taste is fusels or whether it's just "alcohol hot". Alcohol hot will mellow a lot quicker than fusels, as I understand it, though "quicker" is relative.

You started it in May, so it's still a very, very young mead. I would leave it be until something like Christmas time and then take a small taste to see how it's getting on.

It's quite feasible that it could need between 6 months and a number of years to mellow enough, but "that's the way the cookie crumbles" with meads.

 

[huesmann]

What exactly does the adjective "hot" describe when referring to a mead?

 

[fatbloke]

What exactly does the adjective "hot" describe when referring to a mead?

It's often used as a term, more often as "alcohol hot", where the apparent taste, or at least the evaporative sensation when tasting a glass is present. A bit like if you take a slug of vodka. That sort of experience. Not an after taste but, well the taste sensation that over rides the other tastes/flavours.

Hence I presume that's what's being described. It's often experienced when a high alcohol level batch is made and still young. It will age out pretty much, but depending on many factors, as to how long it will take to age to mellowness - if ever.

It's one of those things that is relatively easy to mask, by back sweetening, and possibly acid addition......

 

[ChaosStout]

So, it's been pretty much finished i.e. cleared and back sweetened. Then you're at the "bulk storage" stage, which is fine.

Some yeasts are known for producing fusels if fermented too warm (D47 being a candidate here).

Well, it depends on whether the "hot" taste is fusels or whether it's just "alcohol hot". Alcohol hot will mellow a lot quicker than fusels, as I understand it, though "quicker" is relative.

You started it in May, so it's still a very, very young mead. I would leave it be until something like Christmas time and then take a small taste to see how it's getting on.

It's quite feasible that it could need between 6 months and a number of years to mellow enough, but "that's the way the cookie crumbles" with meads.

Ya I figured id bottle in December and it would be ready by next spring. If the Hotness mellows out it will be a damn good first mead. I also have A Gwerztraminer that finished fermenting on July22nd and is currently aging. Made that with D47 and wow that one is really HOT!

 

[fatbloke]

Ya I figured id bottle in December and it would be ready by next spring. If the Hotness mellows out it will be a damn good first mead. I also have A Gwerztraminer that finished fermenting on July22nd and is currently aging. Made that with D47 and wow that one is really HOT!

D47 eh ?

It's not a bad yeast. Though I'm led to understand that because it's a yeast with quite a narrow temperature range, but it needs to be kept at about 66 to 68F, over 70 and it gets a bit stressed and has a habit of forming fusels, so in the case of the one made with the D47, if it did go over 70, it's likely to take a long time too age.

Can't say for certain, but that's how I understand it.

I like to use mainly either D21 or k1V-1116 for my meads........

 

[MedsenFey]

It can take years for a really hot batch to smooth out. I have some fusel-ridden batches that are just getting to be drinkable after 3 years. Sweetening tends to cover it.

 

[mr_y82]

I did some research because I am also concerned some with fusel production (having read somewhere about inconclusive studies on whether or not they are carcinogenic... what's not!?).
I was reading http://homedistiller.org/ferment.htm and they say:

While making the ethanol, the yeasts will also make very small amounts of other organic compounds - including other alcohols, aldehydes, esters, etc. These are known as the "cogeners" or the "fusel oils". It is the presence of these that give the alcohol its flavour. So when trying to make a neutral spirit, we'd try to minimise their presence, but if making a whisky, rum, brandy etc, then we need a very small proportion of them present.

Fusels increase depending on ...
* yeast strain (eg Saccharomysce cerevisia makes more than S.carlsbergensis)
* temperature (higher temp = more fusels)
* increased aeration and agitation (news to me ! so don't over-stirr it !)
* wort composition (nitrogen sources and readily metabolised sugars)

The most common limiting factor for yeast growth is a lack of nitrogen. Nitrogen is approx 9% of the cell mass. Most common form to add it is as the ammonium ion, as the sulphate and phosphate salts (phosphorus is approx 1-2% of the cell mass, and sulfur 0.3-0.5% so these are needed too - this is a nice way of getting all three in there). Add the ammonium phosphate at a rate of 25-50 gramms for a 25L wash.

The second most common limiting factor is a lack of oxygen, but it only needs it until high cell numbers are present (eg during the first day) (so make sure that you've aerated the wash well just prior to adding the yeast, but don't do this too much later in the game) "Splash filling" is enough to do the job.


I'm not suggesting that we are distilling, but is it possible the presence of very small amounts of fusel oil/alcohol would impart a desireable flavor in mead???

At least now I think I better understand why you guys suggest the 1/3 gravity cut off for oxygenation, lower fermentation temps, as well as another reason why the nutrients/energizer are so important...

I am curious as to what happens if you use a bottom fermenting yeast in mead... is the alcohol tolerance adequate??? would it really produce fewer fusels, or is that a factor of strictly temp rather than yeast???

Obviously some strains are better than others... I ran across the following useful tidbits as I searched.

Factors that lead to higher fusels are higher temperature, more oxygenation (not less), higher pH, higher pitch rates (not under-pitching), higher level of solids, and possibly higher levels of precursor amino acids (but this is debated). Bayanus strains may also be more prone to fusel production.

Temp is the most important of these factors, and the production of fusels seems to occur most during times of rapid yeast growth, i.e, during the early part of fermentation. Letting the temp rise late in the fermentation does not seem to cause the same problem.

Medsen

In regards to fusel production, is it a bad idea to use an entire 5g pack in a gallon of mead??? or is that not over-pitching?

Given time, yeast will reduce some of the fusels to esters. How much is hard to say. I think to some extent it will depend on the concentrations of esters already in the mead; after a while they'll reach an equilibrium. I'd leave it on the full yeast cake at room temperature for an extra month or two.

 

[MedsenFey]

In regards to fusel production, is it a bad idea to use an entire 5g pack in a gallon of mead??? or is that not over-pitching?

While it might cause more fusels, the effect is not significant and using a full packet in 1-gallon batches can produce excellent results.

Also, conversion of higher alcohol to esters is not a yeast function. It occurs through aging.

 

[mr_y82]

Thanks again Medsen.

 

[mr_y82]

How important is temperature after primary fermentation? Would 76F damage a batch that is bulk aging or bottled? How does it effect fermentation time?