Full Volume or Not?

[Dr_Jeff]

On the island where I work, we have a Klarstein 30L all in one brew device.

In the past at home, I have always brewed with 3 vessels.

Is it better to have enough water to be at the 1.25/1.3qts per pound and sparge with the additional water or do a full volume mash.

The Klarstein has a mash "basket" that is solid on the sides and kind of mesh/perforated bottom, it also has a ring, where one lifts out the mash basket, places the ring and it sits above the kettle to drain or for the sparge water to drain through.

With one method, some of the remaining sugars get "rinsed" and with the other, everything just drains.

I just don't have much experience with the BIAB and was looking for input.

Thx

 

[DBhomebrew]

If you can do full-volume it's less hassle. A well-executed sparge will give a 8% or so bump in mash efficiency.

Really, the only difference between 'traditional' 3V and BIAB is whether you remove the water from the grain or the grain from the water.

 

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^^^ Agreed 100%.

You can reserve some water for an efficiency bump. Or compensate w/ the extra grain.

* Be sure you have good grain crush
* Be sure you account for any dead space under and around a basket by adding that volume on top of your 1.25 / 1.50 calculations
* Be sure to occasionally stir and lift the basket to get that dead space mixed in

 

[Dr_Jeff]

I'll take the 8% bump as everything is at a premium out there, if I were at home doing BIAB , I'd just add the extra grain and be done with it, but out there, gotta get everything I can.

How fine should the crush be?

At home I believe that I have it set on about .030 if I recall correctly.
Sometimes, I'll crush it at .035 and then run it again at .025, I think, as it's been a while since I brewed.

Last time I brewed at home was in December, and before that was maybe in March/April, due to this job role.

As we now have a mill out there and there should be three sacks of grain, when I return to the island, and some various other grains.
I'll be taking a bunch of hops, yeast and other items with me when I return.

 

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I have mine set at .028, and get 85% with a quick batch sparge pretty easily. Over time I've come to think that's probably the most important variable.

 

[doug293cz]

^^^ Agreed 100%.

You can reserve some water for an efficiency bump. Or compensate w/ the extra grain.

* Be sure you have good grain crush
* Be sure you account for any dead space under and around a basket by adding that volume on top of your 1.25 / 1.50 calculations
* Be sure to occasionally stir and lift the basket to get that dead space mixed in

To be a little more clear about the water volumes: first figure out how much water you need to get your target mash thickness, then add the total dead space volume to the first volume to get your strike volume. Your sparge volume is then:

Sparge volume = (Pre-boil volume - Strike volume) + Grain bill weight * Grain absorption rate​

​

With a solid sided basket, the wort between the basket wall and vessel wall will be very dilute, and stirring the mash in the basket will not fix this, nor will recirculating. If you don't do the "raise basket, lower basket, repeat several times" (to mix up the dilute wort with the concentrated wort) then the wort absorbed by the grain will be the highest SG wort in the vessel. This will lower your lauter efficiency. Recirculation will help with the dead space under the basket.

Brew on

 

[CascadesBrewer]

I'll take the 8% bump as everything is at a premium out there

I would recommend you at least give full volume mashing a try. When I first started out I was worried about efficiency and worked in a sparge step. After a few batches, I moved to full volume mashing and for me the simplicity is worth it. I don't have to worry about measuring out two volumes of water, figuring out a water chemistry plan and pH adjustment strategy for the different volumes, try to heat up my sparge water (optional), the extra work and cleaning of a sparge, etc. Nothing about a sparge is "difficult" but all the little steps start to add up and distract from the core simplicity of BIAB. I usually come in around 75% overall efficiency. I could add more work to get 80%, or just toss in 8 oz ($0.60) more grain.

 

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I would recommend you at least give full volume mashing a try. When I first started out I was worried about efficiency and worked in a sparge step. After a few batches, I moved to full volume mashing and for me the simplicity is worth it. I don't have to worry about measuring out two volumes of water, figuring out a water chemistry plan and pH adjustment strategy for the different volumes, try to heat up my sparge water (optional), the extra work and cleaning of a sparge, etc. Nothing about a sparge is "difficult" but all the little steps start to add up and distract from the core simplicity of BIAB. I usually come in around 75% overall efficiency. I could add more work to get 80%, or just toss in 8 oz ($0.60) more grain.

I'm a sparger, but yeah you do have a point.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I'm running around 75% doing the full volume mash. I tried it one time and have kept with it since, a little less work and I haven't notice any change in overall flavor. I also run a circulation pump, pulls from the bottom manifold in the mashtun, through a small filter before the pump then to a spray head in the cover of the mashtun. I run the pump for the entire mash, it's slow moving, 2 gallons per minute. Everything works fine for me.

 

[doug293cz]

Full volume mash takes a lauter efficiency hit of about 8.5 percentage points compared to a single batch sparge with equal run-off volumes (all else being equal.) You can choose to sparge, or use more grain, it's your choice. You can get great beer whether you sparge or not.

Since a malt pipe (solid sided mash basket) is usually sparged by pouring the sparge water over the grain in the pipe, the lauter efficiency can be highly variable (could be better or worse than a batch sparge.) To get the best lauter efficiency for a pour over sparge, you want to sparge slowly, and distribute the sparge water as uniformly as possible across the top of the grain bed.

Brew on

 

[RabbitHole]

Be sure you account for any dead space under and around a basket by adding that volume on top of your 1.25 / 1.50 calculations

So can u explain depth here better. Because I feel this has been an issue for me!

 

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So can u explain depth here better. Because I feel this has been an issue for me!

For an Anvil Foundry, and probably any other e-brewer, the metal grain holding basket doesn't have all the water in it. There's water under it, and around it as well. I think it's about 3 qts under it, and another 10% or so around it.

If you have say 10 lbs of grain, and want to do 1.50 qts per pound, you have of course 10x1.5=15, and 15 qts of water is needed. But this really only works for like a cooler. For the Anvil, it'd be 10x1.5=15, plus another 10% for the sides 15x1.10 =16.5 qts and another 3 qts underneath so 16.5+3 = 19.5. In the end you actually need 19.5 qts, not 15 qts, because you are using somethign with a lot of extra water around it but not in the basket where your grain is.

 

[RabbitHole]

For an Anvil Foundry, and probably any other e-brewer, the metal grain holding basket doesn't have all the water in it. There's water under it, and around it as well. I think it's about 3 qts under it, and another 10% or so around it.

If you have say 10 lbs of grain, and want to do 1.50 qts per pound, you have of course 10x1.5=15, and 15 qts of water is needed. But this really only works for like a cooler. For the Anvil, it'd be 10x1.5=15, plus another 10% for the sides 15x1.10 =16.5 qts and another 3 qts underneath so 16.5+3 = 19.5. In the end you actually need 19.5 qts, not 15 qts, because you are using somethign with a lot of extra water around it but not in the basket where your grain is.

You seei have asked this question before and no one would give me the answer. So I just started doing full volume and be done with it. So do u notice a difference just adding the extra surrounding as far as efficiency goes???

 

[soccerdad]

I have never brewed on an all in one system, so anything I offer should be understood in that context.
I prefer a Full Volume Mash but on occasion I have done a dunk sparge when the combination of grain and water might overflow the equipment.
Rather than toss in extra grain I just mash longer (to fully saturate the grains). I am never in a hurry so 90 or 120 minutes of mashing is not a problem. You can even mash overnight.
When I have an all in one (my only real brewing bucket list), I will get a pump and recirc due to the dead space issues to the side of the malt pipe.

 

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So do u notice a difference just adding the extra surrounding as far as efficiency goes???

Hard to say, when I did that I think I figured it out and added some more water. And still sparged. I feel like it was low that day but hasn't been since. Honestly it was many many brews ago.

I'd always suggest adding the extra water even if efficiency didn't change, letting things run fairly dry just isn't good for a variety of reasons for your mash and for your equipment.

 

[odie]

If you are using a basket I would sparge. it really takes no extra time. Pull basket and let it drain while the kettle is heating to boil. Once the basket is mostly empty sprinkle some sparge water evenly over the grain bed until you reach your target volume.

The key is to "sprinkle" your sparge water evenly...not pour it in...so that it percolates thru the grain bed picking up residual sugars.

You could even leave the basket in place during the boil to keep dripping more...No different than those who let the bag hang during the boil.

 

[doug293cz]

I have never brewed on an all in one system, so anything I offer should be understood in that context.
I prefer a Full Volume Mash but on occasion I have done a dunk sparge when the combination of grain and water might overflow the equipment.
Rather than toss in extra grain I just mash longer (to fully saturate the grains). I am never in a hurry so 90 or 120 minutes of mashing is not a problem. You can even mash overnight.
When I have an all in one (my only real brewing bucket list), I will get a pump and recirc due to the dead space issues to the side of the malt pipe.

Recirc doesn't significantly mix the liquid between the malt pipe and vessel wall, if the malt pipe is solid sided. It does mix the dead space liquid under the malt pipe.

You can compensate by lifting, draining, and relowering the malt pipe several times at the end of the mash, or even periodically during the mash.

Brew on