Frustration after 4th brew!

[wsmith1625]

I have brewed 4 extract beer kits so far and have not had a single batch turn out good. The last batch I brewed was a peach hefeweizen which I am about to pour down the drain. I did a lot of reading on extact brewing and the process seems simple enough. I bought a brew kit from William's Brewing and made sure it came with a 10 gallon pot so I could so full boils. I also built a fermenting chamber which seemed to do a good job controlling temps. I am meticulous about cleaning and sanitizing my equipment and don't think I've ever had any signs of infection.

Recently I took bottles from my last 2 brews to the Love2Brew shop so they could taste my beers and try to see what's going on. They seemed to think the temperature control was off, so I'm going to do my next batch in a mini fridge with a digital temperature controller.

What is really frustrating me is that each brew I have done, I have refined my processes and made improvements to try and create better beer. Unfortunately, this seems out of my grasp. With this last batch being a dumper, now I'm in the dumps. Any words or advice for a down and out brewer? I need help. Thanks!

 

[stpug]

Have they all had the same problem? Please describe what's wrong with the beers in your own words. Try to relate the tastes and/or sensations you're experiencing with things you're very familiar with. Does the taste/sensation hit you immediately as you take a sip, more towards the middle of the sip, at the tail end, or all throughout? While I doubt we can give much better advice than L2B, you never know.

Keep at it; figure out what's causing this consistent problem; squash it; and enjoy good beer from there on out!

 

[Sailingeric]

Temp control is your friend. :rockin: And I would do a few simple brews such as an amber or pale ale- until you get some good beer in the pipeline before trying anything with fruit or a lot of hop additions. No point getting frustrated and spending a lot of money on a kit. Hang in there

 

[wsmith1625]

I think they have all had the same problem. The IPA masked the off flavor better than the others, but it was still there. It's kind of a bitter flavor, but it's not pleasant. To me, it reminds me of a medicinal or band aid flavor. When I researched off flavors, the best match I could come up with was what chlorine in the water would produce. I filter my water through a PUR 3 stage charcoal filter and fill my buckets the night before brew day to allow any residual chlorine to evaporate off.

The guys at love to brew did not think it was the water causing the flavor and leaned toward fermentation temperature and stressed yeast. My fermentation chamber did a nice job keeping temps between 68 - 72, but they said because the temperature was constantly swinging up and down as the ice bottles melted, it probably stressed the yeast.

My next batch is going to be in a temp controlled mini fridge and I'm going to use distilled or RO water. If that doesn't fix things, I'm at a complete loss. Thanks!

 

[d3track]

What are you using to clean and sanitize

 

[Gavin C]

Are you doing anything to eliminate chlorine/ chloramines from your water. Charcoal filter won't do it.

Band-aid taste is often descibed as the result of that.

Easy and dirt cheap solution.

Campden tablets. 1 tablet treats 20 gallons.

Also 68F is what I use for finishing off fermentation of ales. Aim for low to mid 60's and it may improve things.

I am spoilt as I have a chest freezer fermentation chamber. Couldn't brew without it in TX.

Chose simpler recipes. Ditch fruits and adjuncts till you really hone your skills. It's a whole lot of extra hard to control variables. Quality of fruit/fruit extract, secondary usage etc.

On that note: Delete any secondary usage to eliminate that variable. (you may already have deleted that so disregard)

 

[Peruvian802]

edited - missed your reply.

How long are you fermenting?
What sanitizer?
Plastic/glass/stainless fermenter?
Did you use the same strain of yeast for all 4 batches? Dry/liquid? Did you make a starter if it was liquid?

 

[stpug]

Good info there.

Have your beers used specialty/steeping grains? If so, can you describe your process.

As for the medicinal/bandaid character, it would be a phenol character you seem to describe. Chlorine is one possible culprit. While chlorine may be filtered out using a PUR system and off-gassing, chloramines likely would not. The easy solution for dealing with chlorine/chloramines in brewing water is to use campden tablets in all of your brewing water. I believe that one campden is enough for 10 gallons of water, and the reaction time is nearly instant (a couple minutes is plenty for sure). Simply add to your brewing water as you're heating it up. The sulphate contribution to the brewing water will be negligible.

Fermentation temp control is also very important. I would like to see your range of fermentation come down by 2 degrees for the most part (66-70), and if you can tighten the range down to about 66-68 then I think you're set. Also, I assume you're somehow measuring the side of your fermenter or your actual beer, and not just the air temperature inside your fermentation chamber, right?

 

[hucklb]

Crush the campden tablet before adding it.

 

[HB_in_Subic]

All of the above; temp control, campden tablets and letting it sit for a minimum of 3 weeks before bottling or adding hops for an IPA. I do nothing but DME + grains and once I switched to the 3 weeks minimum (sometimes up to 8) before bottling the quality has dramatically increased. You need to get more fermenters in the pipeline so you are not in as much a hurry to bottle. 3 for a minimum seems to work for me.

 

[kombat]

I know I sound like a broken record to the regulars around here, but it needs to be said again: Temperature control is the single most important factor in making good beer, followed closely by sanitation, yeast health, and recipe design.

Making beer is ridiculously easy. Making good beer, however, requires a little more obsessive attention to detail.

First off, get that temperature nailed down. If you're using a standard yeast (say, US-05), hold the temperature as close to 65° F as you can for the first 5-7 days of fermentation, then let it rise to 68° F. Note that that's the beer temperature, not the ambient temperature. However you achieve this is up to you, but this one factor alone will make a perceptible difference to your beer. In my setup, I have a chest freezer controlled by an STC-1000. I ferment in 6.5 gallon glass carboys, fitted with a thermowell so the STC-1000 is measuring the actual temperature deep in the heart of the beer. Additionally, I have a heating belt around the carboy, connected to the "heating" circuit of the STC-1000. I set the STC-1000 to 64.5° F, +/- 0.5° F.

Next is the yeast. Make sure you're pitching enough of it, and that they're healthy and ready to go. Calculate the proper pitch rate for your beer, which is approximately 4 billion cells per point of gravity per 5 gallon batch of ale. Double it for lagers. So for a 5 gallon batch of ale with an OG of 1.050, you'd need 4 billion * 50 * 1 = 200 billion cells. Or use Mr. Malty's pitch rate calculator for a more nuanced calculation (takes into account age of the yeast, stirred vs. non-stirred, etc.). If you're using liquid yeast, make a starter. If you're using dry yeast, rehydrate it. If in doubt, lean toward overpitching vs. underpitching. Underpitching easily stresses the yeast, while overpitching has much less impact on the beer (in my opinion).

My third recommendation would be aeration. How are you aerating these batches? Bigger beers need more oxygen, and lagers need even more still. Splashing the beer while transferring from kettle to fermenter is probably sufficient, but if you're brewing lagers, you'll need to consider investing in an aeration stone and injecting pure oxygen into the wort. For my ales, I use a Fizz-X degassing rod on a drill for 2 minutes or so to work up a nice, foamy froth in my wort before pitching the yeast.

At all stages, ensure you're working sanitarily (is that a word?). Keep a spray bottle of StarSan handy, and dunk everything that comes in contact with the cold-side beer/wort in a bucket of StarSan (funnels, bungs, airlocks, blowoff tubes, wine thieves, whatever).

If you do all of that, I guarantee you'll see a dramatic improvement in your beers.

 

[Rockn_M]

@wsmith1625 what yeast are you using? Also how do you know your fermenting at 68F? Do you have the temperature probe taped to the fermentation container, in a container of water or dangling in the fermentation chamber?

 

[ACbrewer]

Kombat - I'd put sanitation before temp control. If the wort is in an insuffently sanitized ferment vessel, the only thing temp control will do is make it so the infection does better than the yeast.

After that, the off flavor described as 'bandaid' is a Cholorine chemical problem usually from having Cholorine in the mix, which means he needs to use the tablets to clear that up.

I will grant that to get GOOD beer, you have to have good yeast management which is not possible without temp control. But to get good beer, it needs to be drinkable beer, to be drinkable it needs sanitation.

 

[kombat]

Kombat - I'd put sanitation before temp control.

I guess it's a matter of personal opinion. Which is more undrinkable to you? An unintentional sour beer, or banana-flavored nail polish remover?

I put temperature control above sanitization because (again, just my experience) I've found that if I'm a little casual with my sanitization (dunking things for 5 seconds instead of 30, using a batch of StarSan that's a month old and a little cloudy, etc.), I've still turned out great beers. But if I let my temperature get even just a couple of degrees higher than intended during those crucial first few days, it makes a dramatic difference in the resulting beer.

But you're right, I should have mentioned water. I'd add a fourth recommendation to my post: Get and use the Campden tablets, or brew your next batch with a couple jugs of store-bought spring water (not distilled, unless you're planning to re-introduce minerals).

 

[Homercidal]

I agree with the advice to try Campden Tabs. I have Chloramines in my water. I LOT of municipal water system use it. It's hard to taste a lot of the time until fermentation happens. then it comes across as a plastic bandaid flavor.

Really, there is NO good reason not to use them if you know your water has chlorine or chloramine. It takes 1 tablet for 5-10 gallons. The effect is pretty much instantaneous.

I use them even with RO water from the store because I don't know that they are doing everything they need to do to get rid of it. Even RO system won't necessarily get rid of it, from what I've read.

Beyond that, it seems that you are doing everything right as far as brewing, but I would also try my best to nail that temp control if you can. An Ebay STC-1000 type control is about $30 to buy and put together and it can help your fridge hold temps real nice.

That said, many people make great beer using a cool basement, or a swamp cooler and some ice bottles. It takes a bit more work, or isn't as precise or adjustable as a temp controlled fridge, but beer isn't THAT sensitive. It's just one way to go from good beer to really good beer, maybe.

 

[rwinzing]

Also, don't dump the beer. Keep for a few more weeks at least. Is there someone you can brew with as well I find having other brewers around gives me perspective on things in my process.

 

[wsmith1625]

Sorry for the late reply guys. I really appreciate all your input.

How long are you fermenting? 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks bottle condition Also using hydrometer to make sure I'm at final gravity.

What sanitizer? I clean everything with hot water and a sponge. Then I sanitize with Starsan. My fermenter gets cleaned with PBW and sanitized with Starsan. I also keep a spray bottle of Starsan so everything that touches the wort gets sprayed again.

Plastic/glass/stainless fermenter? Plastic bucket and PET bottle

Did you use the same strain of yeast for all 4 batches? Dry/liquid? Did you make a starter if it was liquid? First three batches were dry yeast. Safale US-05. The last batch was White Labs WLP320 Americal Hefeweizen liquid. No starters. I did re-hydrate the dry yeast in a cup of pre-boiled water that was cooled down to room temp.

 

[wsmith1625]

Good info there.

Have your beers used specialty/steeping grains? If so, can you describe your process.

As for the medicinal/bandaid character, it would be a phenol character you seem to describe. Chlorine is one possible culprit. While chlorine may be filtered out using a PUR system and off-gassing, chloramines likely would not. The easy solution for dealing with chlorine/chloramines in brewing water is to use campden tablets in all of your brewing water. I believe that one campden is enough for 10 gallons of water, and the reaction time is nearly instant (a couple minutes is plenty for sure). Simply add to your brewing water as you're heating it up. The sulphate contribution to the brewing water will be negligible.

Fermentation temp control is also very important. I would like to see your range of fermentation come down by 2 degrees for the most part (66-70), and if you can tighten the range down to about 66-68 then I think you're set. Also, I assume you're somehow measuring the side of your fermenter or your actual beer, and not just the air temperature inside your fermentation chamber, right?

I did have steeping grains in my last 3 batches. I was reading tips yesterday and realized I made a mistake when steeping. I used the full boil volume to steep the grains. I read that this throws off the PH and releases too much tannins from the grains. Next batch, I will steep in just enough water to cover the grains.

I checked my local water report and they use chlorine to sanitize the municipal water supply. My water taste fine to drink, even without the filter. I always read that if it was OK to drink, it was OK to brew with. I'm not going to chance it next time. Next batch I'm using RO or distilled, so this will eliminate the water as the source of the problem.

Thanks!

 

[Gavin C]

How long are you fermenting? 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks bottle condition Also using hydrometer to make sure I'm at final gravity.

All in the primary till it's done and then package the beer up. No secondary, no arbitrary time-frames. When its reach it's stabe FG/cleared or clearing/no signs of ongoing fermentation it's done.

What sanitizer?

Starsan

Plastic/glass/stainless fermenter? Plastic bucket and PET bottle

.

Matters not a jot so long as it's cleaned and sanitized before the beer goes in. Then don't open it a bunch. Don't mess with it.

The last batch was White Labs WLP320 Americal Hefeweizen liquid. No starters. I did re-hydrate the dry yeast in a cup of pre-boiled water that was cooled down to room temp.

If using liquid yeast I use an appropriately sized starter always, every time.

If using dry yeast, I rehydrate the yeast per the manufacturer's instructions always, every time.

That would be my recommendation

 

[Gavin C]

I did have steeping grains in my last 3 batches. I was reading tips yesterday and realized I made a mistake when steeping. I used the full boil volume to steep the grains. I read that this throws off the PH and releases too much tannins from the grains. Next batch, I will steep in just enough water to cover the grains.


Thanks!

Steep the grains in full volume no problem so long as the temps don't rise above 165ish. Then tannin extraction resulting from a high ph and high temps can occur. This is not the culprit IMO.

If steeping and doing a full-volume boil. Collect the water (distilled or RO is great for extract brewing BTW), toss in the grain bag and take it out after 20-30 mins or when the temps get to 160F. Which ever is first. Squeeze the bag and your ready to bring the wort up to a boil and add DME/LME.

 

[wsmith1625]

I agree with the advice to try Campden Tabs. I have Chloramines in my water. I LOT of municipal water system use it. It's hard to taste a lot of the time until fermentation happens. then it comes across as a plastic bandaid flavor.

Really, there is NO good reason not to use them if you know your water has chlorine or chloramine. It takes 1 tablet for 5-10 gallons. The effect is pretty much instantaneous.

I use them even with RO water from the store because I don't know that they are doing everything they need to do to get rid of it. Even RO system won't necessarily get rid of it, from what I've read.

Beyond that, it seems that you are doing everything right as far as brewing, but I would also try my best to nail that temp control if you can. An Ebay STC-1000 type control is about $30 to buy and put together and it can help your fridge hold temps real nice.

That said, many people make great beer using a cool basement, or a swamp cooler and some ice bottles. It takes a bit more work, or isn't as precise or adjustable as a temp controlled fridge, but beer isn't THAT sensitive. It's just one way to go from good beer to really good beer, maybe.

Good advice about the Campden Tabs. Thanks! I read about them, but wasn't sure I needed them.

I bought a Inkbird Itc-308 Digital Temperature Controller for my mini fridge. No thermowell. Going to tape the probe to the fermentor with bubble wrap. Seems like others have had success with this method. Next batch will definitely have better temp control. Thanks!

 

[Gavin C]

Better than bubble wrap is insulation. That way you'll get even more precision.

Insulation works better than bubble wrap for insulation purposes. (A beer coozie is a good insulator).

 

[stpug]

Steep the grains in full volume no problem so long as the temps don't rise above 165ish. Then tannin extraction resulting from a high ph and high temps can occur. This is not the culprit IMO.

I disagree (to a point) with this. The OP described a bitterness (It's kind of a bitter flavor, but it's not pleasant.) which is often times the word used when, in fact, the "bitterness" they experience is an astringency. An astringency is usually a bitterness accompanied with biting, drying of the tongue, and is not as welcome as a standard hop bitterness. In addition, the OP indicated that they steeped their grains in much more (un-pH-corrected) water than is traditional. This higher the alkalinity and/or pH of their water, and the more that they used, the better chance that they could have pulled some of the husk tannins from the grain and caused an astringency in the beer. To this effect, I would not discredit tannin extraction as a culprit for an excess astringency/bitterness in the beers. I do NOT however think that this has a lot to do with the medicinal/bandaid phenol taste the OP is also dealing with.

 

[wsmith1625]

I have another question about what temperature to pitch the yeast. I hear some people pitch warmer than the primary fermentation temp. Should I pitch at 70-75 and then bring down to 65 or bring down to 65 then pitch?

 

[stpug]

I have another question about what temperature to pitch the yeast. I hear some people pitch warmer than the primary fermentation temp. Should I pitch at 70-75 and then bring down to 65 or bring down to 65 then pitch?

I do both depending on time of year and how cold my ground water is. I believe one of the keys in pitching a little warm (~70F) is that you can finish cooling the beer down to fermentation temps within several hours (4-6 hours) - a mini fridge works wonders for this part.

 

[Gavin C]

I disagree (to a point) with this. The OP described a bitterness (It's kind of a bitter flavor, but it's not pleasant.) which is often times the word used when, in fact, the "bitterness" they experience is an astringency. An astringency is usually a bitterness accompanied with biting, drying of the tongue, and is not as welcome as a standard hop bitterness. In addition, the OP indicated that they steeped their grains in much more (un-pH-corrected) water than is traditional. This higher the alkalinity and/or pH of their water, and the more that they used, the better chance that they could have pulled some of the husk tannins from the grain and caused an astringency in the beer. To this effect, I would not discredit tannin extraction as a culprit for an excess astringency/bitterness in the beers. I do NOT however think that this has a lot to do with the medicinal/bandaid phenol taste the OP is also dealing with.

Fair point.

 

[hucklb]

Since your brewing problem is being diagnosed by describing off tastes, I thought you would like to review the annexed excerpt on the topic from John Palmer's book. See http://www.howtobrew.com/section4/chapter21-2.html Good luck.

 

[oujens]

To the OP:

As others have pointed out, you should probably use campden tablets if using tap water to remove chlorine/Chloramines out of the equation. If possible, use RO water next time to eliminate water as a factor and see if that doesn't improve your beer. Your water source can impact your beer more than you think. I know from experience. The "if it tastes good enough to drink, its good enough to brew" should not be criteria for your water selection. Review the mineral make-up and determine if the levels of minerals are appropriate for the beer you are making.

I read you do 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks bottle conditioning. After two weeks, I would go straight to bottles. Only secondary if lagering. From my experience, I usually need 4-6 weeks to properly bottle condition my beers. This is when the flavor profile becomes optimal, in my opinion.

Don't get discouraged. There is always something new to learn each time you brew. It sounds like you have a plan to correct some of the off-flavors. Your patience will be rewarded once you get a process down.

 

[wsmith1625]

To the OP:

As others have pointed out, you should probably use campden tablets if using tap water to remove chlorine/Chloramines out of the equation. If possible, use RO water next time to eliminate water as a factor and see if that doesn't improve your beer. Your water source can impact your beer more than you think. I know from experience. The "if it tastes good enough to drink, its good enough to brew" should not be criteria for your water selection.

I read you do 2 weeks primary, 2 weeks secondary, 2 weeks bottle conditioning. After two weeks, I would go straight to bottles. Only secondary if lagering. From my experience, I usually need 4-6 weeks to properly bottle condition my beers. This is when the flavor profile becomes optimal, in my opinion.

Don't get discouraged. There is always something new to learn each time you brew. It sounds like you have a plan to correct some of the off-flavors. Your patience will be rewarded once you get a process down.

REALLY appreciate all the good advice. Thanks so much for the encouragement.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I have brewed 4 extract beer kits so far and have not had a single batch turn out good. The last batch I brewed was a peach hefeweizen which I am about to pour down the drain. I did a lot of reading on extact brewing and the process seems simple enough. I bought a brew kit from William's Brewing and made sure it came with a 10 gallon pot so I could so full boils. I also built a fermenting chamber which seemed to do a good job controlling temps. I am meticulous about cleaning and sanitizing my equipment and don't think I've ever had any signs of infection.

Recently I took bottles from my last 2 brews to the Love2Brew shop so they could taste my beers and try to see what's going on. They seemed to think the temperature control was off, so I'm going to do my next batch in a mini fridge with a digital temperature controller.

What is really frustrating me is that each brew I have done, I have refined my processes and made improvements to try and create better beer. Unfortunately, this seems out of my grasp. With this last batch being a dumper, now I'm in the dumps. Any words or advice for a down and out brewer? I need help. Thanks!

When I first started shooting and reloading, I would do all the things that "they" said I should do. I didn't know why I was doing half of those things, and I didn't have a full understanding of how those things interacted with each other, let alone how they inter-acted with the fundamentals of shooting and reloading.

That was my first mistake.

My second mistake was going out to the range, setting up a target, and shooting at it. with each shot, I would adjust the scope to the bullet hole I had just created, and take another shot. Then I would repeat the adjustment and take another shot. And again. And again. Why bother shooting a group, when I can't even get the bullet to hit the same spot with each shot?

As I kept chasing my tail, I blamed my rifle, I blamed the people who had given me all this advice, I blamed the weather, I blamed the components and equipment I was using....

Then I learned some fundamentals and how everything works together; suddenly, my ammunition as well as my accuracy showed dramatic and effective improvement.

I'm not saying that this is your problem, but a frank and honest evaluation of what you know (or, possibly, what you think you know) might be productive.